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Old July 3, 2014, 07:26 PM   #1
Bezoar
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Our guns are more accurate then us

I have to admit it , factory guns are more accurate then we are.


Had an enjoyable day, fired off 102 rounds. FUN.

i discovered the taurus 66 should have a FLAT faced trigger. get any kind of speed shooting DA and well, whole finger slips sideways making them sights move down and left.
But on the upstide, if you get excited shooting DA and dont notice the slippage, i can get very consistent hits on target. last target has whole cylinders worth of slugs hitting in an overlapping fashion.

First cylinder of ammo was .357. fun but odd, hit LOW and horizontally along target bottom.
realization, six- oclock hold is not for my guns sights.

130 grain fmj. line the sights up and place were you want to shoot them. kinda strange thought when your bullseye is 4 inches in diameter and basically is the same apparent size as your front sight blade when you shoot at 25 yards.

.38 special does have recoil. and makes noise. But its fun as heck. ANd its really really strange that 7 rounds can disapear really fast.
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Old July 27, 2014, 09:24 AM   #2
weldonjr2001
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I know all mine are more accurate than myself. But I find that comforting rather than distressing.
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Old July 27, 2014, 10:27 AM   #3
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The older I get, the more disappointingly true your statement becomes...
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Old July 27, 2014, 12:18 PM   #4
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I have a S&W K22 22LR with scope that shoots smaller groups than I am holding the crosshairs on.

I have a Colt target Woodsman with scope that shoots larger groups than I am holding.

When my brother shoots my Colt he gets groups half the size of mine. He says I am not pulling the trigger right.
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File Type: jpg S&W K-22 CCI 40 gr sub sonic at 50 feet cropped.jpg (17.0 KB, 41 views)
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Old July 27, 2014, 04:18 PM   #5
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Makes sense

You don't put thousands of rounds downrange to make your gun better.
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Old July 28, 2014, 09:28 AM   #6
qwiksdraw
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Quote:
You don't put thousands of rounds downrange to make your gun better.
Isn't that why we spend hundreds of dollars on new parts and accessories so we can make the gun shoot better?
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Old July 28, 2014, 11:33 AM   #7
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probably

It rarely occurs to most people that their gun is not the cause of all their woes.
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Old July 28, 2014, 12:53 PM   #8
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I think it is important to make sure your gun is made of quality and make sure it performs to the best of its abilities.... so you are taking a few variables out of the equation.

FROM THERE.... it is up to the person to learn and understand and practice how to perform to their bests using that weapon, which is the hardest part.
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Old July 28, 2014, 01:49 PM   #9
BigJimP
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Yes, a few of my well made guns ( like Wilson Combat 1911's ) have a 1"
guarantee at 25 yds...and while the gun itself is capable of that....I can't shoot them that well, at that range...... but at 60 Plus yrs old, I do the best I can....
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Old July 28, 2014, 02:30 PM   #10
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I don't even hate to admit it any more. I know good and well that my handguns are capable of more accuracy than I can wring out of them. If and when I ever become a good enough shooter that Gun X really can't keep up with me, such that I really need to buy Gun Y. . . I'll be a happy man, indeed.
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Old July 28, 2014, 02:57 PM   #11
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I see the Les Baer guarantees at 3" groups at 50 yards and I just wonder to myself how the average person even tests that. 3" at 50 yards is a respectable group for a rifle with open sights, let alone a handgun. I know I shoot my CZ 75 into the head of a sillhouette at 20 yards and I'd be lucky to do get them all in the torso with no misses at twice that.
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Old July 28, 2014, 07:10 PM   #12
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Isn't that why we spend hundreds of dollars on new parts and accessories so we can make the gun shoot better?
Usually not.

The guns usually shoot just fine without anything done to them or added to them. Most "new parts and accessories" are done to please the shooter. Few enhance accuracy.

Many of the things people have done to their guns are not because they need them to shoot better but because they have read or been told by someone that something is needed for them to shoot better.

The main thing needed to shoot better is quality practice, patience and getting to know the gun.

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Old July 28, 2014, 08:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Usually not.
....

The main thing needed to shoot better is quality practice, patience and getting to know the gun.
tipoc
I agree with you. But I believe you missed the intent and humor of my reply. Sometimes I'm just a little too subtle when I'm being facetious.

Keeping the day job!
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Old July 28, 2014, 10:50 PM   #14
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Sorry I didn't see it

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Old July 28, 2014, 11:54 PM   #15
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While some certainly are more accurate than we are, for precision shooting events you still what the best you can afford. Error is additive. If you are capable of shooting 3" groups @ 25 yards and the gun from a rest shoots 3" at the same distance; you can expect 6" groups offhand with that gun. If another competitor with the same ability as you has a pistol that shoots 1.5" @ 25 yards, he/she will beat you every time because across a 60-90 round match as that is enough rounds for the guns to shoot their average. It takes work to get your ability under 2" @ 25 yards consistently so, if you have the money, it is quicker and long term better to get a more accurate gun. The more accurate gun will give you better feedback as to what you are doing right or wrong as you work at improving yourself.
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Old July 29, 2014, 12:54 PM   #16
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While some certainly are more accurate than we are, for precision shooting events you still what the best you can afford.
No one is speaking about precision shooting events. If a person can shoot consistent 3" groups at 25 yards while standing, over iron sights and not off a bench. Than a better gun and custom work can make a difference in improving their scores.

Most out the box commercial guns are capable of that with select ammo. Most "out the box" shooters are not.

You don't need a $3000. gun to shoot well. You don't need 500. of custom work to shoot well.

A stock Ruger or S&W revolver will outshoot most shooters with the right ammo. The same is true of a stock Glock, Colt, or CZ.

There are exceptions to this but they are rare.

3" groups consistently at 10 yards is what most shooters struggle for. Then at 15 yards. Then 25. Technique matter more than the gun. At a certain point an upgraded gun can help, but it can't make up for poor technique.

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Old July 29, 2014, 02:29 PM   #17
Bob Wright
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While the guns themselves are capable of very fine accuracy, certainly tweaking the action and the ammunition will wring out better performance from both gun and shooter.

Many revolvers come from the factory with very heavy trigger pulls, often with creep and with overtravel.

Smoothing up, and lightening the trigger will certainly allow the shooter to shoot better. Same is true, especially in buying used guns, in timing the actions of revolvers so lead is not shaved in firing. And sometimes revolvers come with undersized cylinder throats which must be opened up to provide acceptable accuracy.

True, handguns come with very fine accuracy built in, but more often than not, things have to be done to allow the shooter obtain that accuracy.

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Old July 29, 2014, 03:12 PM   #18
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Great example this past Sunday.
Ruger SR40c 40cal.
Normally I have about a 1 – 1 ½ group at 25 yd with that pistol.

25 yards 8 rounds in a nickel sized hole.
No thought as to finger position on the trigger.
No thought as to grip, just picked the gun up and started pulling the trigger.
Spent the next 50 rounds trying to repeat that group.
Just proves the gun can out shoot me.
Dam what did I do the get a group like that???????
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Old July 29, 2014, 04:18 PM   #19
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True, handguns come with very fine accuracy built in, but more often than not, things have to be done to allow the shooter obtain that accuracy.
I believe this opinion is incorrect.

I agree that "handguns come with very fine accuracy built in...". But this is generally the case and not exceptional. In general, the mechanical accuracy of handguns today is probably better than it has ever been.

On a revolver a shooter may need a set of stocks that fits their hand and allows for better recoil management and a uniform grip. But that's really about it until the shooter gets to know the gun. This and other similar matters aren't about mechanical accuracy, they're about shooter interface.

I think the first part of the statement is true, the mechanical accuracy is very fine. It's the next part that is mistaken, that "more often than not, things have to be done to allow the shooter to obtain that accuracy."

Most often not. Replacing stocks is common, clean and lube, running the gun to see which ammo it likes best, etc. these things are part of learning the gun.

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Old July 29, 2014, 04:37 PM   #20
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I think that this is generally true. I am its the Indian not the arrow kind of guy but I do think some of the comments here are missing the point when it comes to customization. A lot of it has to do with ergonomics which are 100% subjective.

It is not just about mechanically making the gun more accurate. It is about making the gun more ergonomic for a particular shooter. Triggers, sights, grips & hammers are all great examples of this. Very few modifications go after the inherent accuracy of a pistol but tons of them make the interplay between an individual shooter and the gun better.

I cannot change the size of my hands and as a result some guns no matter how mechanically accurate are not going to be accurate for me. It does not mean I cannot shoot and it does not mean the pistol is not accurate. The one size fits all mentality is false.

It is very similar to golf clubs. 99% of clubs on the market today are capable of extreme accuracy when hit off machines but in the hands of individuals there are "accurate" and "inaccurate" clubs. Your are not hitting golf balls with a machine and you are not shooting handguns with one either.

Quote:
Great example this past Sunday.
Ruger SR40c 40cal.
Normally I have about a 1 – 1 ½ group at 25 yd with that pistol.

25 yards 8 rounds in a nickel sized hole.
No thought as to finger position on the trigger.
No thought as to grip, just picked the gun up and started pulling the trigger.
Spent the next 50 rounds trying to repeat that group.
Just proves the gun can out shoot me.
Dam what did I do the get a group like that???????
Honestly I have to ask if you mean 25 FT not 25 YARDS.

The SR40c is a compact pistol with a 3.5" barrel. If you can shoot off hand 1 to 1.5" groups with it you have nothing to worry about. I also cannot imagine someone who could just pick that up and shoot a nickel sized hole at 25 YARDS. I don't know many people who can shoot a group like that with any compact gun with a 3.5" barrel. Does not mean they do not exist but I do not think this thread applies to your shooting examples. Unless there is a typo.
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Old July 29, 2014, 05:11 PM   #21
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Customization to make the gun fit the individual is a useful thing, that I do and others do.

But, I think there is a tendency, particularly with some new shooters to believe that it takes a semi custom or custom gun to shoot accurately when it doesn't. It requires a decent ammo and practice.

An example pulled from memory...a few years back I was at my indoor range shooting and a man next to me asked if I could try his gun. He said it was shooting terribly. It was a 9mm S&W Sigma, an early one. I asked him to shoot it some and I watched. He produced dinner plate groups at 7 yards. It was poor. So I shot it and did less poorly.

He said that was great and that he thought it was the gun but saw it was him and felt good he had not wasted his money.

But he wasn't all right or wrong. The trigger on the Sigma had a long squishy and gritty trigger with a break that seemed to differ from shot to shot. It required serious concentration to place the rounds inside 2-3" at 7 yards as I did. Had I worked at it over time I could have improved some.

For the gentleman shooting what I did was a step up. With practice he could do better.

But the Sigma is a rare gun with a very poor trigger (I've heard they reworked it in the intervening years, I don't know, I never looked at another one).

A Sig 229, A Glock 19, a Colt Defender, a Ruger Redhawk all these are guns that in my experience shoot very well out the box and rarely need work to shoot better. But all can benefit with small things to suit the shooter.

Most shooters with a few years experience are better off with a good gun out the box than $700. worth of custom work. The latter is most worth it once you know what you need.

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Old July 29, 2014, 05:30 PM   #22
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I am a shooter who favors accurate guns. There is a lot of information on the internet, both right and wrong, about how you need to spend "X" thousands of dollars to get that accurate handgun. On the other hand you will see/hear numerous stories about uncle Fred's Glock/XD/MP/etc that just tears one hole @ 20 yards. Not saying they are incorrect in all cases but that is not what I have seen in over 40 years of competitive shooting with rifles and handguns. The most accurate handgun I have cost just over $1500 new, was never modified, and it is capable of 1-hole groups @ 25 and even 50 yards. The only place I came across similarly accurate handguns is at a match, never just at the local range plinking around (see below).

I do agree 100% that you will get more performance from a handgun that fits you. That is why you see all of the serious accurate equipment is adjustable. Only with an accurate handgun that fits you will you ever find out truly how well you can shoot. Until that point you will always be asking is it you or the gun. YMMV

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Old July 29, 2014, 05:39 PM   #23
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I think that it's pretty much true for all of us. The older I get, the more I'm certain of it. The sad trught is . . . if we live long enough . . we'll probably have a better chance of hitting the target by throwing the handgun at it than by shooting at it.
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Old July 29, 2014, 06:35 PM   #24
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Mostly I agree with the OP- however, I do have a S&W Victory Model in .38SW Ctg that I just can't get to group well at all. I'm sure I could order the dies, lead, shell holders, etc and try some reloads... but I just don't see me doing that any time soon.

I've tried Remington, old Winchester, old Federal, Precision brand factory loads (145 and 146gr) and none of them impress me at all. Usually, I don't hold onto boogered up or inaccurate firearms- but I keep hanging onto this one for whatever reason. Guess I'm waiting for the day I come across some .38-200 ammo to feed through it to see if that doesn't get a 10yd group to come in under 6".
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Old July 29, 2014, 07:13 PM   #25
tipoc
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Quote:
Only with an accurate handgun that fits you will you ever find out truly how well you can shoot. Until that point you will always be asking is it you or the gun.
Well, no. See it's easy to answer that question. Ask a better shooter than you to shoot it and see how they do. If they do better than you, it's you. If they do worse or as good, it's the gun.

This stuff isn't magic.

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