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Old July 26, 2014, 09:10 AM   #1
Ozzieman
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9MM out to 400 yards!

9MM is capable out to 400 yards!

Being a fan of pistol caliber carbines I hear many times here on TFL that a 9mm carbine in fact most pistol caliber carbines are a waste of money since they are useless beyond 100 yards.
A good friend sent me this web address since he knows how much I like them and I will admit that I had serious doubts about a 400 yard 9mm being capable of penetrating a full length torso of ballistic jell.
This isn’t the most scientific test but the two guys did a good job with the filming and setting up the test.
The only thing I would have liked to know was how high he had to hold to hit with a 9mm.
Please don’t think that I am suggesting that you can or should take on deer or even think that a 9mm is a capable gun at that range. This was only an experiment to show what the penetration of a 9mm is even out to that range is capable of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wXFf34bB34
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Old July 26, 2014, 09:43 AM   #2
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Well, there was another thread this recently about Elmer Keiths 600 yard pistol shot. So we already know that you can make hits, and cause damage at long ranges with pistol calibers.

With the load they listed 1050fps with 124FMJ (A fairly mild 9x19 load FWIW) there'd be roughly 419'' of drop @ 440 yards. That's true drop, if you're zero'd at 50 yards, for example, you'd have about -376.63'' drop to hold over for. If they had used a heavier bullet 147 grain bullet pushed to a similar velocity, drop would be slightly less with roughly 402''
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Old July 26, 2014, 10:13 AM   #3
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Interesting and most appreciated.
It's kind of a stunt that has no pratical applications except to be darned
careful of a sold backstop when shooting any weapon.
Like I said, intersting & appreciated.
It would have ben fun to shoot for groups at 400 yards as I'd have been interested in that also.
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Old July 26, 2014, 10:25 AM   #4
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All handguns will far outdistance what we consider effective range

I think everybody would benefit taking their favorite handgun out to the desert and see what can be done.
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Old July 26, 2014, 10:48 AM   #5
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The Germans optimistically had 1,000 yard sights on their Broomhandles and did similar tests with pine boards.
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Old July 26, 2014, 11:21 AM   #6
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Seems like I remember .22 long rifle ammo once came with a warning that they were dangerous out to a mile??
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Old July 26, 2014, 01:21 PM   #7
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We had a big old truck tire at 200 yards and after some trying, we could reliably hit inside its center hole. So I'd better not be attacked by a tire.
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Old July 26, 2014, 01:35 PM   #8
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I personally have killed deer with 9mm at 50 yards from a carbine, it was pushing lethality and penetration. 3/4 plywood is by no means a a realistic comparison to bone and flesh. I have no doubt that at 200 yards 9mm could still cause grievous injury to a human penetration would be minimal, expansion would be minimal, and likely, hydrostatic shock would also be minimal. by 400 yards, a thick jacket could probably catch that 9mm and you'd probably be able to walk away from it. that's also against people, I judge a round's lethality by hunting standards. I compare to elk and deer rather than people.
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Old July 26, 2014, 03:26 PM   #9
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I think this test pretty much negates the whole "AR has longer range than pistol caliber carbine" thing. I am now going to stretch my Beretta CX4 Storm out to 400 yards and see what kind of groups I get.

...

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Old July 26, 2014, 04:51 PM   #10
JD0x0
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Quote:
by 400 yards, a thick jacket could probably catch that 9mm and you'd probably be able to walk away from it.
I'm not so sure about that.

A 147 grain 9mm bullet launched at 1000fps is going to have roughly 755fps velocity and 186ft-lbs of energy @ 400 yards if you use a 147 grain bullet with a decent BC. Compare that to non +P .38 special from a 4'' barrel launching a 148 grain WC at roughly 700fps, it doesn't seem like a thick jacket would be able to stop one so easily.
Even if a HP doesn't expand, it's going to at least act like a SWC or FMJ, and will likely penetrate a decent amount in soft tissue.
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Old July 26, 2014, 06:00 PM   #11
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LOL My problem is that I'd have more problem seeing the #$%^#$# target at 400 yards . . . let alone trying to hit it!

Unless it was REALLY big!
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Old July 26, 2014, 06:30 PM   #12
4V50 Gary
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Back to the C96 Broomhandle. At 1,000 meters it could hit; provided the shoulder stock was affixed and the target was 4 x 4 meters or minute of elephant. Poor Jumbo.
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Old July 26, 2014, 07:17 PM   #13
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Just messing around I have shot targets with my 357 magnum carbine out to about 500 yards and it still penetrates car doors. Im sure it would be lethal. There is a ton of hold over but with some experimenting its not super hard given the size of a car. I would not shoot a deer at that range unless it was made out of metal or paper.
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Old July 26, 2014, 08:25 PM   #14
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So I guess a .338 Lapua is lethal out to well beyond the horizon!
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Old July 27, 2014, 03:32 PM   #15
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So I guess a .338 Lapua is lethal out to well beyond the horizon!
SquareRoot(height above surface / 0.5736) = distance to horizon
Don’t think you would find much argument on that one since a shooter standing on the ground with h = 5 ft 7 in (average eye-level height), the horizon is at a distance of 2.9 mi.
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Old July 27, 2014, 04:11 PM   #16
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But how ya gonna aim at something past the end of the earth!?
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Old July 27, 2014, 10:42 PM   #17
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Pretty good tests. I have a 40sw carbine and I shoot 165s from it. The velocity gain from a long barrel are pretty significant. According to the chart at Ballistics By The Inch the Corbon 165 showed an increase of 223 fps from a 17" barrel as compared to the 4" barrel. My Hornady 165 FTX is a bit faster than the Corbon.

I also found that the velocity gains are not constant, in other word the faster the bullet is from the 4" barrel the higher gain difference from the 17" barrel.
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Old July 28, 2014, 12:32 AM   #18
tahunua001
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Quote:
A 147 grain 9mm bullet launched at 1000fps is going to have roughly 755fps velocity and 186ft-lbs of energy @ 400 yards if you use a 147 grain bullet with a decent BC. Compare that to non +P .38 special from a 4'' barrel launching a 148 grain WC at roughly 700fps, it doesn't seem like a thick jacket would be able to stop one so easily.
Even if a HP doesn't expand, it's going to at least act like a SWC or FMJ, and will likely penetrate a decent amount in soft tissue.
for the purposes of their test they were not using 147gr HPs, they were using 124gr FMJs. an FMJ is not going to expand at all, especially if it's only got 125FTLBs of energy left. by thick jacket I don't mean fluffy and down, I mean like Carhartt or other heavy duty jacket. I'm not saying that you would not injured, I'm just saying that it is a huge leap to say that just a bullet would still be lethal because it still penetrates a sheet of plywood at that range...

that's also ignoring the fact that at 400 yards, assuming 1000FPS at the muzzle, that 124gr FMJ drops 300+ inches... I doubt you'd even get the shot on target at that range, especially if it was moving.
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Old July 28, 2014, 05:08 AM   #19
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Look up a youtube clip of a fellow in Canada that shoots several .22 longs at 500yrds through a beef roast double wrapped in denim pant legs. I think you may re-evaluate.
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Old July 28, 2014, 05:56 AM   #20
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I once hit a full sized garbage can lid at 100 yards with a .455 Eley.
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Old July 28, 2014, 06:25 AM   #21
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Old July 28, 2014, 06:26 AM   #22
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Quote:
But how ya gonna aim at something past the end of the earth!?
It never stopped artillery crews!

Sorry about the double post.
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Old July 28, 2014, 07:50 AM   #23
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My Browning Hi Power Capitan has a tangent iron rear that may be positioned up to 500 yards/meters (I'd need to look). Pretty optimistic imo. I'll stay 25 yards and under.

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Old July 28, 2014, 08:09 AM   #24
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I have a book which describing the Sterling sub machine-gun states that the ballistics of the cartridge 115gr @1240fts make its use beyond 200yds a waste of ammo. wasting ammo is something the Brits have never liked to do.
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Old July 28, 2014, 09:10 AM   #25
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There tends to be a huge gulf between 'it's not effective at that range' and 'I'd be glad to stand at that range and let you shoot at me with it', though, doesn't there?


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