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Old August 1, 2014, 01:53 PM   #1
JD0x0
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A pistol round that will make many people happy.

I've been doing some reading up on the 10mm Auto necked down to .308 cal. It's seems to have some impressive performance.

9mm Dillon, which is 10mm Auto necked down to .355 will propel 115 grain bullets to roughly 1800fps in a 6'' barrel
90 grains are blazing out at about 2100 FPS!

Imagine necking down to .308 and using a 110 grain .30 carbine soft point. Should be plausibly reaching 1700-1850fps nearing that of .30 carbine in a pistol length barrel.

Pretty impressive, if you ask me. I'm wondering why this hasn't become more popular and commercialized. Seems like it could be good for HD and even military and LE applications, for armor piercing due to its high velocity. Terminal performance should be pretty impressive with expanding ammo as well.
And being able to market a pistol round with almost as much power as .30 carbine has in an 18'' barrel is a good selling point.

How many of you would have a pistol chambered for .308-10mm auto if it was commercialized?
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Old August 1, 2014, 02:44 PM   #2
Peter M. Eick
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Got one like it (9x25), shot it a lot, not so much any more.

It is bloody loud, painful loud.
The recoil is like holding onto a steel bar and then letting someone whack it with a hammer. It goes right up your arm.
The concussion hits your temples like a slap with hot loads.
Your brass goes into low earth orbit.

So, is it fun, yes. Do I regret it, not really. Does it have a place today? Not really either.

Like all wildcat rounds, it was fun, I learned and then moved on.

If you want one, get a G20. Get a 9x25 Dillon barrel and go to town. I recommend a comp though.

If you want a true wildcat of a true 30x10mm. Go for it and report back. It should not be too hard to get KKM or someone to do it for you.
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Old August 1, 2014, 02:59 PM   #3
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If this is for fun, then why not?

If this were for real world situations, would not be just a higher risk of over-penetration? All that speed and a smallish frontal area?

All the same, I'd be interested in seeing the results.

Who knows?
A year from now it could be featured in my "recent calibres" thread!
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Old August 1, 2014, 03:08 PM   #4
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Judging by all the highly touted "why don't they make?" rounds that have been commercial failures, I'd say it's of interest to really dedicated reloaders and experimenters, and that's about it.
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Old August 1, 2014, 03:24 PM   #5
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Pistols will be pistols and rifles will be rifles. Anyone who would be interested in such a beast probably carries a rifle too, making it useless.
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Old August 1, 2014, 03:48 PM   #6
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I wouldn't think it'd be that 'beastly' especially compensated. Lots of gas from all that powder. It's part of the reason 9x25 Dillon was designed for competition, the extra gasses can help make a compensator/brake do it's job more effectively. No question that it'd be loud, probably will make a nice fireball with slow burning powder, too.

I calculated the recoil and it's not too far off from a stout .45acp load as far as recoil energy, in an equal weight weapon.

110 grain bullet @ 1800 FPS with a estimated 11 grain powder charge in a 2lb weapon.
Quote:
Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec) 1.07
Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps) 17.29
Free recoil energy in (ft/lbs) 9.28
Compare that to a 230 grain bullet @ 900FPS with an estimated 6.8 grain powder charge

Quote:
Recoil Impulse in (lbs sec) 1.04
Velocity of recoiling firearm (fps) 16.73
Free recoil energy in (ft/lbs) 8.69
Fairly comparable IMO. The light bullet tends to help keep recoil lower than one might expect.
Remember that recoil should be more tame than both 10mm Auto and 9x25 Dillon by a measurable amount. Lot's of folks love their 10mm's despite the recoil.

Here's some terminal illustration data for .30 carbine


Right around 43cm or 16.9'' of penetration with the JSP. That's right around the what the FBI tests recommend. If similar performance can be achieved at 1700-1800 FPS it could plausibly be an effective round without excessive penetration.
FWIW .30 carbine is traveling about 1700-1800FPS at 40-50 yards.

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Old August 1, 2014, 04:05 PM   #7
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9x25: loudest gun ever

I'll betcha that recoil feel differs from calculated
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Old August 1, 2014, 04:39 PM   #8
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Why the heck not?

Don't think I'd mortgage the home to get one, but it could fill a niche or two for many.
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Old August 1, 2014, 08:14 PM   #9
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Hmmmm...10mm supposedly can feed from PPSH drums, and does feed from PPSH stick mags . Sounds like a pretty awesome PDW round, at least at the upper end of the PDW round scale.

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Old August 1, 2014, 08:22 PM   #10
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"Pistols will be pistols and rifles will be rifles."

Does that mean there is no interest in my newly developed blowback vest pocket pistol in .50 BMG with a 2" barrel and a 50 round magazine?

Jim
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Old August 1, 2014, 08:41 PM   #11
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They don't sell a whole lot of 7.62x25 Tokarev ammunition (although it is, quite literally, a "blast" to shoot) so why would this round be such a game-changer?
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Old August 1, 2014, 08:53 PM   #12
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Imagine necking down to .308 and using a 110 grain .30 carbine soft point. Should be plausibly reaching 1700-1850fps nearing that of .30 carbine in a pistol length barrel.

Pretty impressive, if you ask me. I'm wondering why this hasn't become more popular and commercialized. Seems like it could be good for HD and even military and LE applications, for armor piercing due to its high velocity. Terminal performance should be pretty impressive with expanding ammo as well.
Might be good for a small "pistol caliber" carbine. But, that's a pretty crowded niche, too.
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Old August 2, 2014, 12:11 AM   #13
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Does somebody sell 10mm barrels for PPSH-41? If they feed well...I have a PPSH-41.
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Old August 2, 2014, 11:23 AM   #14
Peter M. Eick
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Weshoot2 understands completely. Looks good on paper does not translate to fun at the range in this case.
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Old August 2, 2014, 11:37 AM   #15
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I wouldn't think it'd be that 'beastly' especially compensated. Lots of gas from all that powder. It's part of the reason 9x25 Dillon was designed for competition, the extra gasses can help make a compensator/brake do it's job more effectively. No question that it'd be loud, probably will make a nice fireball with slow burning powder, too.
Those extra gasses come with a LOT of HEAT, NOISE, and FLASH/FLAME. I have seen what a compensated .40 muzzle brake-directed gasses did to the inside of a guy's arm during CQB drills.

Since this is suggested for personal defense, the issue is relevant. The noise will be MUCH worse because so much of the combustion is going to be taking place outside of the barrel. A muzzle brake will just help make sure the sound it that much louder to the shooter. That isn't a benefit. The heat/flame/flash introduces the danger noted above to the shooter, to nearby combustibles, and will help make sure to blind the shooter during a low light shot, especially with a muzzle brake. These are all detrimental.

Recoil will be not as bad as expected? I dunno. Having shot some rifle rounds from compensated hunting pistols, I have my doubts.

These are all negative factors for self defense shooting, military, or LE applications.

The trick it to be able to find a way to get all the velocity from a short barrel without the excess of gasses that produce such negative side effects. That is difficult to do. In fact, nobody has done it in a compact enough design for a handgun in the caliber/velocity ballpark you are talking about.
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Old August 2, 2014, 11:48 AM   #16
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Sounds cool, but you could probably count me out.
I use to want a G20, until I fired one that is. It was fired during a day of shooting 3 different 45's (2 1911's->Kimber, Sig and a Tangfoglio), 2 9's (G26 and FEG Hi Power clone) and a S&W .38 Spl Combat masterpiece w/ +P. While the recoil of the 10mm was very manageable, thanks in larger part to just how big the G20 really is, I did not enjoy shooting it after the first magazine. It made the 45's feel like a light load and it reminded me of shooting magnum revolvers. Halfway through the first 15 rd mag I could feel the recoil traveling into my shoulder! No thanks. While the 10mm has its place place as a hand cannon round, I have no further plans on pursuing one. my $.02
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Old August 2, 2014, 12:06 PM   #17
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No thanks.

Quite frankly this sounds like an awful idea.

I'd imagine it would be LOUD, wouldn't do anything that 10mm or 9x25mm Dillon would do better, and would be 'spensive to run.

For personal defense, they already got it right in 1902 in Germany. No matter how many wish it weren't so, the 9x19mm Parebellum strikes a near-perfect balance of controlability, power, and capacity that makes it the worlds premier fighting pistol caliber. With todays hollow point technology, it gives up nothing to the larger caliber like .40 S&W, but still had the advantages listed above.

I don't think .308-10mm (should be called 7.62x25mm oh wait that already exists) will ever change that and for defensive use would NOT be ideal. Why would one want to give rifle-like ballistics to a handgun? Do you know of many cops/soldiers accurate enough to need that kind of ballistics in there sidearm?

I sure don't!
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Old August 2, 2014, 01:43 PM   #18
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7.62x25 is based on a Luger case head; quite a bit different in terms of powder capacity. There's also something to be said for going below 9mm; tokarev is the same thing as a hotter Largo necked down, but is far more penetrative than that. For armor penetration and fragmentation purposes, speed matters more than momentum, and crossing that threshold is really hard to do with fatter bullets without really high chamber pressures (which would also drive a smaller bullet even faster). I agree on the loudness; 5.7 is loud enough, I'd hate to think of the same acoustic properties with twice or more energy driving them

I'd think the biggest problem with a 10mm necked down to 30 would be taper. You'd have something rapidly approaching the 224 BOZ in stubbiness, which would inevitably lead to feeding difficulties. And it would only get worse if you want to use flat-shooting ogive bullets, as opposed to round-nose ball that won't fragment or tumble.



The main benefit of a 10mm-derived case, would be that I imagine the casehead/primer pocket would be tough enough or some real pressure in a locked breech firearm, which might stretch your capabilities beyond what 9mm or even smaller choices like 30 Carbine case heads can accomplish.

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Old August 2, 2014, 04:58 PM   #19
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This is the 9x25 Dillon your talking about isn't it. From what I recall it was developed in the late 1980s or early 90s as a round for competition shooters. It did well with compensators. It may have been that changes in IPSC rules kept it less common. About double the case capacity of the 38 Super. I think Double Tap makes commercial ammo for it and maybe another company.

Yeah here is Double Taps offerings...

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby...ensionid=10104

About the same time others were working on new brass for the 38 Super and came up with the 9x23 Winchester. A less powerful round than the 9x25 based on strengthened Super brass.

A quick search turns up more info...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%97...l_availability

http://www.gunblast.com/9x25Dillon.htm

It has it's own home page...

http://www.9x25.com/

Interesting round. I don't know why I'd want to neck it down further to .308". If I wanted it in a pistol caliber carbine I'd go with the Dillon. If I wanted more from it I'd make it into a rifle round. But by then there's alot of offerings as is.

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Old August 2, 2014, 05:05 PM   #20
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I didn't catch who makes them, but our local gunshop has some rounds for sale that push the limits. A 40 SW loaded with a very light bullet, I think he told me about 60 gr @ 2000 fps. They had some 45 ACP with about 80 gr bullet @ 1800 fps. I was told they penetrate about 6" and expand violently. These are full size rounds, that function in standard 40 and 45 pistols, not necked down.

Seems like a gimmick to me. I looked at one of the boxes briefly, but did not buy.
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Old August 2, 2014, 05:23 PM   #21
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Those super light .40's and .45's sound gimmicky. Very low sectional density. Probably penetrate and retain velocity as well as birdshot or lighter buckshot pellets.

In contrast, a 110 grain .308 caliber bullet has the sectional density equivalent to a 236 grain .451 caliber projectile.

As far as the muzzle blast and report, I wouldn't think it'd be any worse than a .357 snubby, even with milder loads. There's plenty of people who carry LCP's and comparable guns with 1.8-2'' barrels. I assume the muzzle blast would be pretty significant.

Also I don't think there's anything stopping you from using a flash suppressor or sound suppressor, if you wanted to. You'd just have to ensure the suppressor is capable of handling the pressure of supersonic loads.
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Old August 2, 2014, 09:37 PM   #22
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Quote:
As far as the muzzle blast and report, I wouldn't think it'd be any worse than a .357 snubby, even with milder loads.
With all the extra powder of a .308 cartridge coming out of a pistol barrel, I think you are in error. There is going to be a LOT of extra flash and noise

Quote:
There's plenty of people who carry LCP's and comparable guns with 1.8-2'' barrels. I assume the muzzle blast would be pretty significant.
.308 cartridge from a pistol length barrel is going to be many times larger than what you get from an LCP.

Quote:
Also I don't think there's anything stopping you from using a flash suppressor or sound suppressor, if you wanted to. You'd just have to ensure the suppressor is capable of handling the pressure of supersonic loads.
Well, once you add the noise suppressor, you are almost back to a carbine length barrel and that sort of negates the whole compact-sized notion of a hyper velocity pistol.

Put on a flash suppressor? Is that in addition to the muzzle break?

To make what you want to work the way you want it to work in a manner that the public is going to see as beneficial is going to be very difficult. However, nothing is stopping you from trying. Go ahead and build your prototype and start promoting it and see what the reactions are.
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Old August 2, 2014, 11:45 PM   #23
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They had some 45 ACP with about 80 gr bullet @ 1800 fps. I was told they penetrate about 6" and expand violently.
Wow, and people say 5.7x28 is a gimmick. Bullet half that mass at the same speed, which penetrates about twice as much while tumbling/fragmenting along multiple paths, and after penetrating a thin rigid barrier, no less (not true 'armor' with the hollow points, of course, but they are still going fast enough to punch through stuff that would mushroom & deflect slower rounds)

Quote:
I don't know why I'd want to neck it down further to .308"
For the velocities attainable from pistols or small PDWs, going lower than 308 rapidly improves armor/barrier penetration characteristics. Not a usual criteria we care about, but it is a legitimate reason to model something after 7.62x25 vs 9mm +P, for example (with similarly engineered loads/bullets, the smaller one can punch through better every time)

TCB
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Old August 3, 2014, 02:53 AM   #24
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A pistol round that will make many people happy.
At this point, it would be the .22 LR.
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Old August 3, 2014, 01:18 PM   #25
tipoc
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Go for it. Give it a try.

You might want to consider dropping to a 7mm round rather than 7.62. Upside increased case capacity etc. and possible increased control when firing, downside a sharper shoulder.

But try it.

I think the weak link here is what the round is to be used for. If a PDW or pistol there is a reason that service caliber pistols tend to have similar profiles, the reason is controlability in rapid fire. The other reason that's been mentioned is the size of the gun.

You might be looking at a better hunting round than defensive round.

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Last edited by tipoc; August 3, 2014 at 01:50 PM.
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