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Old September 20, 2014, 07:05 AM   #1
johnelmore
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Secret Service MP5?

Is that an MP5 I see in this news article?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...ks-evacuation/

Just curious....
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Old September 20, 2014, 07:42 AM   #2
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Any time and place you see a SMG it's most likely an MP5 !!
BTW originally the gun , in 9mm, had a straight mag .Didn;t work that well. Then they went to the curved mag and it was great ! This because of the tapered case of the 9mm. Yes the SS and a long list of other agencies around the world use the MP5.
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Old September 20, 2014, 11:39 AM   #3
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They also use the FN P90 which imo is a better smg. Plus it just looks bad *
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Old September 20, 2014, 01:39 PM   #4
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Your SS has used MP-5's for eons. Look for footage of the attack on Regan. MP-5 were everywhere.
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Old September 20, 2014, 02:05 PM   #5
johnelmore
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I know there have been companies which have put out similar looking competing models and there are several variants of the MP5. I am wondering what exactly does he have there.

Im a bit surprised they are not toting a rifle caliber sidearm. Anyone can get body armor off of Ebay and stop the rounds in the MP5 although I think it would still be painful. In one photo some years back I saw an officer by Congress with an H&K made rifle. My personal experience is that anything which H&K makes seems to just work and work well. The AR15 variants, well, it doesnt always work or work well IMHO.

If I was the President I would tell them you all are most certainly going to get H&K.
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Old September 20, 2014, 04:44 PM   #6
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Can't post the picture here because it isn't mine but the news photos I pulled up on the Pres. Regan attack the S.S. agent was holding an Uzi not an H&K MP5.
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Old September 20, 2014, 04:55 PM   #7
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Gotta love those closed bolt SMG's.

And good on the SS agent for not firing. Now if only the police could be trained that well.
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Old September 20, 2014, 06:21 PM   #8
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All police are trained very well. The thing is there are people out there who push the police to the extremes. Last time I was stopped by the police I quietly handed over my license and reg. I sat still in the car and said as little as possible. It was over in minutes and I got handed a ticket. I drove away alive. However there are guys out there who will scream at the officer or jump out of the car. They might grab the officer. If you do any of that I cant say I feel sorry for you if you get hit, beat or shot in the process. Thats off topic to this thread though.

If I was running full speed on the White House lawn I would expect to get shot. I could easily have an explosive vest on or a concealed weapon. In national security areas this is what I would expect and I would understand. If you dont know that jumping the fence and running for the White House might get you hurt or worse...Im not sure what to tell you. It does take some common sense to live life from day to day.
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Old September 20, 2014, 07:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
All police are trained very well.
Having been a departmental training officer, this actually made me spit ice tea through my nose.

Then I realized you were serious....



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Old September 20, 2014, 07:21 PM   #10
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However there are guys out there who will scream at the officer or jump out of the car. They might grab the officer. If you do any of that I cant say I feel sorry for you if you get hit, beat or shot in the process.
So shouting at a cop makes it OK to get hit, beat or shot? Do you wear a tee shirt with "Subject, not Citizen" on it?

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Old September 20, 2014, 07:26 PM   #11
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The police over here go through a rigorous selection process, they go months through an even more rigorous academy which looks very stressful from the online videos and they have to make it through their on the job training where they ride along with the training officer. It does look like they get a lot of training, at least, in this part of the country.
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Old September 20, 2014, 10:12 PM   #12
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The SS uniformed division has. Been using MP5's for decades.
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Old September 20, 2014, 10:17 PM   #13
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Big difference between SS and a cop on the street. SS never hurts for back-up.

Cop on the street is often alone and not always prepared for what he/she encounters.
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Old September 22, 2014, 10:38 AM   #14
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There are lots of myths about smgs. A long time ago I had a tech who had walked across France with a Thompson SMG.It was always on full auto !! BUT using it every day he could fire as many rounds as he wanted - one , two ,or more. Only in the military in wartime conditions do you get that kind of on the job training !! For a police department training is only a fraction of that.
So SMGs are a waste of lots of ammo unless semi-auto is taught. Spray and pray is bad.You must aim . Similar problems occurr with high capacity handguns as the statistics show . NYPD at one time had a hit probability of about 10 % ,when they switched to autos while the revolver was twice that.
But the departments would rather spend money on 'community relations ' rather than Shooting skills.
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Last edited by mete; September 22, 2014 at 11:29 PM.
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Old September 22, 2014, 09:01 PM   #15
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To be fair, I suspect the Thompson gets more accurate rounds on target using full auto than semi because:
-It's so heavy FA is nearly as stable as semi
-It's so heavy you'd be shaking badly by the end of a 30+ round mag shooting it any slower

"Look for footage of the attack on Reagan"
I thought it was Uzi's that got all the press after the assassination attempt? MP5's coming out party was the British raid to rescue the Iranian Embassy hostages. Not saying the Uzi is better by any means, it isn't

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Old September 23, 2014, 12:58 PM   #16
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The MP5 is really an idiot proof machine. Easy to use, very accurate and reliable. Lets say you have never used an MP5. You can pick it up and with a few minutes be getting your target. Its really easy to squeeze short and deadly bursts on to the target. The first MP5 that I used was a rental at a Vegas range. It was beat up, worn and looked like it had been through a generation of abuse, but it fired so smooth and it worked. On the other hand the AR15 I have a different experience. The SS agents I believe would train often at the range but I have been known to be wrong about these assumptions.

The White House door I would think would have some type of combo or electronic lock, but they just leave it open. Hmmm.

Last edited by johnelmore; September 23, 2014 at 01:04 PM.
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Old September 23, 2014, 10:46 PM   #17
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You haven't really lived until you shoot an MP5. That's a strong statement, I know.

The accuracy, ease of use, very low recoil, simple controls, beautiful trigger, well designed ergonomics, and overall beauty make it the best sub machine gun ever.

The MP5 was designed in the 1960s. Compare that to a car from the 60s, a microwave from the 70s, or computers from the 80s, and all that stuff looks dated, like you can tell that stuff came from an earlier time, when your parents lived. To this day, 60 years later, the MP5 looks like it could have been designed yesterday. In a word, it is timeless in its design.

The MP7 has nothing on the MP5. The MP7 just looks like an ugly Uzi.

I'm not making a comment on it's use or wisdom as a military or defense gun, I am only commenting on it's overall awesomeness.
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Old September 24, 2014, 09:19 AM   #18
Jim Watson
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The MP 5 is a smooth shooting weapon. The closed bolt and roller breech don't have the bounciness that the typical open bolt SMG does.
But you pay for it, in actual money. As Jeff Cooper said of the P9S pistol, what H&K saves with stamped sheet metal and plastic, they plow back into an elaborate bolt and barrel extension. But they had something near 80% rough part commonality and over 50% actual interchangeability across their entire line of shoulder weapons.
No more. Looks like the MP5 and MSG90 (PSG-1) sniper are about the only roller action guns they still make.
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Old September 24, 2014, 10:14 AM   #19
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We shot MP-5A3s in OCS.

A colleague remarked to me, that as children of the late 80s and early 90s (we were the oldest guys in our class), he felt that he was denied the glory of getting to do an "HK slap" before storming a building full of bad guys. He was very bitter about it.

It's fun to shoot, and I'm sure it has advantages, but I like my carbine length assault rifles.

Even though the factory sights on the MP-5 are probably the best I've ever used on a weapon as issued.

However, that being said, as I told my friend, "you may be a cool operator; but you'll never be SAS guy swinging into a window with an MP-5 cool"
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Old September 24, 2014, 05:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
The AR15 variants, well, it doesnt always work or work well IMHO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
The MP5 is really an idiot proof machine. Easy to use, very accurate and reliable.
[...]
On the other hand the AR15 I have a different experience.
I don't know what your experience with AR-15s is, but any decently-made AR-15 is one of the most reliable, simplest, easiest to use, and most accurate auto-loading rifles you can buy.
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Old September 25, 2014, 06:50 AM   #21
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My experience is the Army during the, lets say, cold war era. I remember the times we spent cleaning and lubricating...the times when it just wouldnt work...the cool acronyms to get it to work like sports. I remember the times where I got so frustrated I just wanted to throw it away. I remember a bit of comedy from a Drill Sgt who said if you cant get the M16 to work than just grab it by the barrel and come out swinging and yelling.

After the Army I never used one again and purchased other brands. Ive never had a problem with anything H&K or anything made in Germany or places around it for that matter. So I stick with what works for me. People say things have changed with the AR15 since my earlier years, but it looks like the same rifle to me...
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Old September 25, 2014, 11:25 AM   #22
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My experience started with the M16A2 in 1997, and I've owned and fired many AR-15s since. I've found the weapon to be the single most reliable firearm I've ever used. Almost all the stoppages I've had with it were due to bad mags issued to me in the Marine Corps.
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Old September 25, 2014, 11:32 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
People say things have changed with the AR15 since my earlier years, but it looks like the same rifle to me...
The M16 was prematurely issued to the military, and that caused lots of problems. First, the ammo used by the military was more powerful than what it was designed for, and that stressed the buffer system too much. Second, the chamber and bore weren't chrome lined. And third, the mags it was issued with weren't very reliable.

But worst of all, it was initially issued without cleaning kits and touted as a "self-cleaning" rifle, which we all know isn't true. But once all those problems were sorted out, the rifle proved to be very reliable. Almost all problems experienced in the military since then are either due to poor maintenance or bad mags, and that's hardly the weapon's fault.
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Old September 25, 2014, 10:27 PM   #24
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Since this thread is now in the NFA forum, I will ask these questions.

Has anyone ever shot both a genuine factory HK MP5 and an NFA MP5?

If you have, can you tell the difference?

I own several NFA MP5s, but I've never really shot a factory MP5 (I once about 15 years ago shot a factory LE MP5, but that was before I knew about NFA machine guns, so I don't remember enough to compare).

FYI, there are no known factory MP5s in the NFA registry. There are rumors of such guns, but they're only rumors. The closest you can come is a double push pin MP5. All NFA MP5s are conversions. Source: http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/...k_nfa_conv.HTM

Obviously, the gun in the Secret Service pic is a factory MP5.
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Old September 26, 2014, 11:41 AM   #25
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From Wikipedia, current weapons issued by the Secret Service:

Quote:
The current sidearm for USSS agents is the Sig Sauer P229 chambered in .357 SIG, which entered service in 1999, and also the FN Five-seven pistol. A variety of off duty, back up, and undercover weapons are also authorized.

Agents and officers are trained on standard shoulder weapons that include the FN P90 submachine gun, the 9mm Heckler & Koch MP5 submachine gun, and the 12 gauge Remington 870 shotgun. The continued use of the MP5 remains a source of controversy as many other federal agencies have moved away from sub-machine guns altogether and replaced them with assault rifles. Despite this, the agency has no current plans to replace this weapon
The Secret Service used to use the Uzi, as seen in photos of when Reagan was shot. I think they have since phased that out. The MP5 and FN P90 are better submachineguns, in my opinion.

MP5 normally has settings for semi, burst, and full auto (as well as safe), using icons that anyone can understand instead of written markings.

I've fired only one MP5, the SD model with the built in suppressor. Very nice weapon.

My experience with the M16 started in 1987 with an M16A1. I've never fired an A2, but I have fired an A4 and an M4. National Guard doesn't always get things fielded to them right away. I've had lots of malfunctions with an M16, but I don't consider it either unreliable or especially reliable.

The funniest problem I ever had with an M16A1 was when it started double-feeding, firing 2-round bursts on semi. This was during a National Guard qualification weekend drill, and I'd already zeroed the sights, so switching to someone else's rifle would have required me to go back to square one and re-zero. Solved the problem for qualification by swapping my lower receiver for another, putting that on my upper, and qualifying with a hybrid rifle. It worked.
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