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Old July 19, 2014, 01:37 AM   #1
Koda94
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out gunned and out numbered

Statistically the odds are low, but when I read about this weeks deadly bank robbery in California I thought to myself what would I do if I was in the bank at that time?

We carry to be prepared and not be a victim but in this case a lone citizen would be severely out gunned and out numbered. What would be the best tactical advantage in this scenario say if your carrying your pistol with maybe 1 spare mag at best?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/us/cal...html?hpt=us_c2
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Old July 19, 2014, 02:02 AM   #2
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In a situation like that, having a carry pistol and maybe a spare mag wouldn't really change the circumstances much compared to having a pocket knife. Unless, of course, your survival wasn't high on your priority list.

Real life isn't much like Die Hard. Taking on a number of well-armed combatants single-handedly with only a pistol doesn't work out well except in the movies.
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Old July 19, 2014, 02:31 AM   #3
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so if you decide to play cool and be the victim is there anything you can do to minimize the risk of the suspects finding your gun? Anything to minimize the risk of being picked as a hostage?
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Old July 19, 2014, 08:54 AM   #4
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Banks are insured, I don't care how many guns how much ammo I have in my pocket, I'm not about to start a shoot out in a bank.

As to the incident posted, trying to save hostages unless you know what you're doing is putting the hostages in more danger then they are in.

Having been a LE sniper and still a certified LE Sniper instructor I understand you need to know what you are doing, you just don't shoot the bad gun anywhere and hope the hostage isn't harmed.

I good witness that leaves his gun in his pocket beats the heck out of a dead useless witness every time. Not to mention putting others in danger cause you want to be a hero.
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Old July 19, 2014, 09:33 AM   #5
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Had I been unfortunate enough to be in that bank at the time and carrying, the only way I would have drawn is if I were about to be taken hostage and defending my own life. Odds are small I might have survived, but that would have been a game changer for me and nothing left to lose.
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Old July 19, 2014, 09:38 AM   #6
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As Kraigwy stated- My life is worth more than all the Banks money. Let them have it and hopefully they will leave with out anyone getting hurt. I carry to protect my life,not to protect the banks money

Now I know this could have went down 100 different ways. But IMHO-Most bank robbers just want the money and to get away as fast as they can. I don't think Most times they plan on shooting anyone either.
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Old July 19, 2014, 10:00 AM   #7
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So, they take the money and run, good-bye. No reason to start a shootout.

If they start shooting people, or taking a hostage, then that is a different scenario from a robbery.
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Old July 19, 2014, 10:40 AM   #8
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A notable fact from this incident is that one hostage was killed by gunfire even with several police officers responding. There isn't always a happy ending. BGs can create no-win situations.

The only thing you can do in such difficult situations is to influence the odds in your favor as much as your options allow. There are going to be situations in which the presentation of a firearm increases your chances, and those in which they decrease your chances. I remember seeing a statistic somewhere showing that the odds of survival decrease considerably for a person who is relocated by a robber. Being taken hostage or having your firearm discovered might swing the odds in favor of drawing and firing to try to fight your way out of a bad spot, but if outnumbered and outmanned and neither of those look like they are happening, your odds might be best staying quiet and let things play out. Your odds are never zero and never 100% for surviving a gunfight.
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Old July 19, 2014, 10:42 AM   #9
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I subscribe to the thoughts of kraigwy and killimanjaro. I carry a gun for personal protection, not the protection of a faceless organization. My life is not worth any amount of of someone elses money, so let them take it. Once I was personally threatened or someone whom I loved that was with me, then that may be different, but the outcome against multiple enemies would still likely be me dead or injured.
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Old July 19, 2014, 11:45 AM   #10
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I don't always see eye to eye with Kraig, but on this one he is absolutely correct.

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Old July 19, 2014, 11:54 AM   #11
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My father and I were in a bank when robbed. Both of us were armed and had joked beforehand and about not going "john wayne" unless someone started shooting. They didn'tso we ddidn't but we gave great suspect descriptions and a license plate.

One on three or two on three against better weapons is always a bad idea.
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Old July 19, 2014, 12:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
One on three or two on three against better weapons is always a bad idea.
I agree.
What are everyone's opinions on where they draw the line between taking action and playing cool? What about 3 suspects but only one of them has a gun? Im also curious about what can be done to mitigate your chance of being used as a hostage? What can you do if one of them selects you?
Yes, I realize every situation is unique. Im not looking for a hard line or a rule. Just discussion.
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Old July 19, 2014, 12:55 PM   #13
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If they start shooting hostages or attempt to take me hostage is probably when I'm gonna start fighting. If they just want the banks $ they can have it. Not worth losing a life or taking a life over
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Old July 19, 2014, 01:08 PM   #14
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I would say @ the point where they are starting to drag people away as hostages and come to you would be the time that you'd be forced to draw. If you are being ignored and their focus is else where be the most uninteresting victim you could possibly be. No eye contact, no movement, talking, heroics, etc.

Firstly, they'll probably find your weapon. That won't end well.

Secondly, It might be the last point that you'll be unrestrained and able to do as you please. Im not encouraging heroics but I wouldn't want to have my last moments be those of tied up at gunpoint by some stupid criminal.

I would say I would try and wait until the robber approached and grabbed me. he'd be giving up control on his weapon while allowing it to be in reach of yourself. He'd also provide you with some cover from his friends who might hesitate to fire at you both.

The last and hardest choice I think you would need to make after that initial engagement is after your hand is forced. Should you fight or flee? Saving you bacon and the beating feet out the door might be the safest for everyone. It won't win you any praise but the fewer bullets exchanged the less of a chance innocents will be hit. That would be my suggestion in general. After you've protected your life get out. You're just putting everyone else in the area at risk. If they are between the door and you get out a window.

Only time I would say to go on the offensive is if disengaging would cost you your life. Such as running through a long empty lobby or something.

That would be my opinion if I were alone with no other loved ones.
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Old July 19, 2014, 01:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
What are everyone's opinions on where they draw the line between taking action and playing cool? What about 3 suspects but only one of them has a gun? Im also curious about what can be done to mitigate your chance of being used as a hostage? What can you do if one of them selects you?
Yes, I realize every situation is unique. Im not looking for a hard line or a rule. Just discussion.
How do you know that only one is armed absolutely?
If it were me I would remain calm and be a good witness. Like others have said why try to be John Wayne, you could very possibly make the situation much worse than it is. The only way I would draw would be if they A) Start shooting people. B) They try and take me hostage. I just don't get that when some people carry they think they have to intervene in every situation, like they are an action hero?

My .02 Cents
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Old July 19, 2014, 01:29 PM   #16
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If I'm in a bank being robbed, I want to be the least likely hostage I can be. The robbers can get away with the money from my perspective. The bank isn't paying me to take risks to protect their interests. I'll try to be a good witness.
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Old July 20, 2014, 09:41 AM   #17
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Many times, discretion is the larger part of valor.
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Old July 20, 2014, 11:24 AM   #18
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In that case

I'd not opt for engaging unless they are deciding they need to kill me. Keep a low profile and pray they leave.
Engaging multiple opponents is extremely difficult. Few people have that kind of training.
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Old July 20, 2014, 11:55 AM   #19
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Three bad guys against one hostage do not work in you favor. You are dealing with known gang bangers who care nothing about collateral damage. I'd be willing to bet that they would not pick a hostage that could probably fight back so your chances of being taken hostage go way down. With three armed robbers, the force is pretty overwhelming. I'm not sure if there was any body armor involved, but don't forget about the incident that the movie Heat was based on. Firing on someone with body armor would most likely be suicide.

Now say the perfect storm hits and you are taken as a hostage, and you happen to be armed (not too likely in California), and the bad guys do not discover your gun , then the only opportunity to change the odds would be if the bad guys get distracted long enough as they are shooting at the police. I would seriously consider making a move since the police are already firing upon the vehicle. If I was being used as a human shield, my greatest chances for survival would be to act rather than being shot by the bad guys, cops, or both. I am not pretending to be Rambo or anything, but what else can you do?
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Old July 20, 2014, 11:59 AM   #20
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What kraigwy said. Sometimes being a good witness is the only sensible option to you.
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Old July 20, 2014, 12:45 PM   #21
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So, they take the money and run, good-bye. No reason to start a shootout.

If they start shooting people, or taking a hostage, then that is a different scenario from a robbery.
+1.
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Old July 20, 2014, 01:55 PM   #22
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In my CCW class the instructor asked, if you were in a shopping mall near an exit and you heard gunfire, what is your best response?

The answer was to leave. It is your job to protect yourself and loved ones. The people who are being shot at had the chance to get their own CCW permit. You are not there to protect everyone. You get in a gun battle then another CCW permit holder, or Police Officer sees you and thinks that you are the bad Guy etc.

In this particular case it may be proved that the hostages were all shot by "friendly fire".
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Old July 20, 2014, 02:51 PM   #23
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"I'm not about to start a shoot out in a bank."

It is not smart for a citizen (or even a cop) to start a shootout anywhere that innocent people will be involved except as an absolutely last resort. Any attempt to play hero could very easily cause the robbers to open fire and kill a dozen people when they otherwise would have taken the money and left.

One of the points in police training is when NOT to be super macho and just cool it and remember descriptions, and characteristics for future use. Some folks think a gun in their belt or a badge on their chest makes them God and in control of everything. Some have found out that they were wrong.

Jim
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Old July 20, 2014, 03:21 PM   #24
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I'm voting with the consensus. My carry gun is for one purpose only. To save my life or the life of a loved one (great bodily harm is included). I would most likely act to protect another from losing their life or from receiving great bodily harm (or rape). I say that because I alone, have to live with my conscience. However, when it comes to OPM (other people's money such as a bank), or other material things,let them take it and be gone. Insurance will replace what was taken.

Another aspect to consider, there were at least four gunmen. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good and if it is not my lucky day, I wouldn't push those odds in a closed environment.

In this particular incident, a gun battle in the bank would have been instant death for a lot more people.
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Old July 20, 2014, 04:42 PM   #25
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Even when I was on duty I'd not consider a shoot out in a public building unless I was going to get shot. I did 10 years as a detective so it wasn't obvious I was the man. Wearing a uniform in such a situation could get unhealthy real quick.
Now I'm disabled & carry but I would not react like an officer these days.
Too old....too crippled.
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