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Old July 21, 2014, 10:53 PM   #26
James K
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I am no expert on swordsmanship and don't even play Errol Flynn on TV, but I thought the usual idea was to have the sword in the right hand and a dagger (the main gauche) in the left for close quarters.

As for firearms, someone once said that "a gun is a labor-saving device."

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Old July 22, 2014, 03:18 PM   #27
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That was one form of sword fighting. Others used buckler, shield, or two handed swords. Swords were standard alongside firearms for most of the history of firearms. Right up through the Civil War and even into the later 19th century. And while I'm not suggesting we start carrying smallswords around again, I am wondering if we've lost some important tools in the kit. Since WWI the focus has been more and more exclusively on shooting. For good reasons when it comes to military conflict. But for civil fights we still operate on a continuum under the law. Our training seems to be an either/or matter though. Either you have your firearm and are ready to shoot or shooting, or you have something else. Little attention on flowing between the firearm and the LTL force or back again. At least from what I've seen. Which at the extreme end may result in people getting shot who didn't need shooting.
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Old July 22, 2014, 08:34 PM   #28
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One good thing about folding knives....they make good impact weapons when folded.
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Old July 22, 2014, 09:51 PM   #29
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The way I see it, the whole point of having a gun is so you DON"T have to resort to physical combat.
I agree. I have a friend who does semi-pro level MMA and is an absolute BEAST of a man. We talk sometimes about the merits of hand to hand combat vs. the use of ranged firearms. Both sides of the argument have valid points vs. the other. His benefit is he can defend himself much better than me in situations where a firearm cannot be had on the person. My argument stems from things like the advantage of standoff distance and the psycological effect of the presented firearm having a strong "de-escalation" effect on most individuals.

My thinking is it's good to learn both methods of defense. I consider myself competent enough with a concealed firearm, but I am fat and out of shape, pretty short and non-muscular, and quite clumsy. Therefore, if things get hand to hand, for me... welll... I try and avoid those situations at all costs by using the mush between my ears and carrying a firearm at all times everywhere I'm allowed to!
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Old July 23, 2014, 11:30 AM   #30
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Little attention on flowing between the firearm and the LTL force or back again.
Part of the reason might be our legal system. Today there is the after the fact mindset that using less that lethal force, after using lethal force indicates doubt in your mind that lethal force was necessary, and if such doubt exists, then lethal force is not justified.

Reality, of course, is different, but having to face this particular hurdle in court might explain why training "flowing between the firearm and LTL force or back again" is not emphasized.

In a last ditch, worst case situation, your firearm is an impact weapon. That is not heavily pushed today, likely because today's firearms are poor impact weapons, compared to previous generations.

Times have changed. Troops in WWII and through Korea were trained to shoot, and to fight with the rifle in boot camp/basic training. Both ends and the middle if needed. Today, only certain troops get that kind of training, and its not in basic, its done in specialist schools.

in 1975, my bayonet training in basic consisted of a Drill Sgt holding it up, and saying "This is the M7A1 Bayonet! Take a good look! You will not use it!." When asked why, the response was, "The Army, in its wisdom has decided that if you are in bayonet range of the enemy, the odds are very high that one of you will ammunition, and so we are not going to waste time teaching you the bayonet."

I am also reminded of the story about Pres Roosevelt (TR), and the spike bayonet. Some folks were advocating the spike bayonet, to replace the blade. according to the story, TR took a rifle with a blade bayonet, and in a duel with a Marine guard, cut the spike bayonet off his opponent's rifle with the blade. I don't think we have had a man capable of that in the Oval Office since.

I you think there is a clear need, and a niche for training to "flow" from firearms to edged/impact weapons (and back?) then start a school, and enrich our lives and your wallet.
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Old July 23, 2014, 11:57 AM   #31
T. O'Heir
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Sword and buckler isn't medieval.
Having a bayonet on a rifle is purely a throw back to muskets. Another military thing that says, "This is how we've always done it and how we'll keep doing it." Like handguns, if you get to where you need one, you've made a very serious tactical error.
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Old July 24, 2014, 10:56 AM   #32
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The bayonet, while a throwback in actual combat as done these days, still has a valid place in the soldier's kit. Its a medium size knife that fastens to the rifle.

May not be the choice for a fighting knife, but its a general utility tool, and it fastens to the rifle. Its not a "weapon" in the sense the rifle is, it is primarily a terror weapon. I think the last US fixed bayonet charge was during WWII. Possibly there have been some others since, small actions somewhere.

The main use of the bayonet (on the rifle) is intimidation. Our minds know that the rifle can shoot, and kill us, but our mind also knows that the blade will cut us. Logically, one should be more afraid of being shot, than stabbed, but our brains don't always process things logically. Cold steel, the naked blade is capable of creating the subconscious fear the rifle alone does not.

There is still a place for a the bayonet, on the rifle. Crowd and prisoner control. VERY useful to have available a less than lethal, painful sharp pointy thing to ..encourage compliance, short of having to shoot someone.
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Old July 24, 2014, 11:00 AM   #33
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Lately, the deployed folks are liking their tomahawks. They report their presence in the hip has impressed the locals. A fine weapon and useful tool.
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Old July 24, 2014, 11:49 AM   #34
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44AMP--that's just what I'm getting at. And I think you're absolutely correct about the legal barriers making it either/or but not both. As for me starting a school, it would be a case of blind leading blind. But I'm going to keep probing around and maybe try some things out. Krav Maga might be a viable foundation for this kind of thing.

Quote:
Sword and buckler isn't medieval.
It dates back that far and farther. In fact it's the basis of the earliest written sword fighting manual in existence, I:33. Put together by ex-soldiers who had retired to monastic life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Armouries_Ms._I.33

The art is being revived now by some outstanding martial artists. Esp. Roland Warzecha out of Hamburg. There are also later Renaissance S&B techniques. Many of Cortez's troops were sword and buckler men. Which seems odd until you witness what that little dinner plate can do in trained hands. Someone swinging a flint club is going to be in for a surprise.
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