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Old July 11, 2014, 10:18 AM   #26
redhologram
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My first gut and knee-jerk reaction is exactly what Sevens said. After thinking on it longer I would then do what WW2 and JimmyR suggested.
If you all are a Team, there is no I in Teamwork. You must all take responsibility and ensure it doesn't happen again.
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Old July 11, 2014, 05:07 PM   #27
serf 'rett
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Way back in the mid 70’s, the Gunny was trying to raise a little money for an upcoming big match. He wanted to buy some Eley Tenex match ammo. If your score was lower than your norm, you got “fined”. Less than 6 points cost $0.10, 7s and 8s cost $0.05, if you had a miss on paper, you paid $0.50, off paper cost $1.00, extra holes were $0.25, and so forth.

We had finished for the night and were policing the brass in front of the line when the guy behind me picked up his Hi Standard pistol, pointed it at the floor and pulled to trigger release tension on the springs (as we were taught at that time). The round hit just behind and to the right of me. A piece of concrete flew up and nicked me just below my eye. We all learn lessons that night.

Everyone learned how many expletives the Gunny, a former Paris Island DI, could string together (his upcoming promotion to Master would have been sunk for sure if someone would have been holed under his watch).

Everyone learned to check for an empty chamber.

No one was kicked off the team, even the prankster who had stuffed an extra round in his fellow shooter’s mag.

An interesting question comes to mind. The shooter knew he had sent the correct number of rounds down range, but didn’t know someone had stuffed his mag with the extra round.

Was this a negligent or accidental discharge?

Want is done to your guy should depend in part on his previous actions up to this point.
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Old July 11, 2014, 06:06 PM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serf 'rett
...An interesting question comes to mind. The shooter knew he had sent the correct number of rounds down range, but didn’t know someone had stuffed his mag with the extra round.

Was this a negligent or accidental discharge?...
That helps illustrate the significance of the Jeff Cooper/Gunsite Rule One of safe gun handling: All guns are always loaded. When that rule is properly internalized and lived by, one would not pull a trigger unless actually shooting at something he intends to shoot or until after he has personally clearer the gun and personally checked the chamber and magazine well to verify its condition. Nor would anyone pull a trigger unless the gun was pointed in a safe direction with no one anywhere near to being down range.

Of course the Jeff Cooper/Gunsite Rules were designed for a hot range. And Gunsite teaches people things they should know for carrying a loaded gun in public or keeping a loaded gun for self defense. But the real world is a hot range, and IMO the Jeff Cooper/Gunsite Four Rules are the "gold standard."



A while ago I received the following (quoted in part) in an email from another Gunsite alumnus (emphasis added):
Quote:
Negligent discharges that result in injury are the result of 1. IGNORANCE, and/or 2. COMPLACENCY and/or 3. HABIT that is inappropriate to changed conditions.

Proper training with the universal rules can only address #1 and #3.

...The great deficiency of much NRA civilian training ... is that muzzle and trigger discipline are not rigorously enforced except when on the range when the line is hot and sometimes not even then. Change the conditions to carrying a loaded gun at all times and adverse results are predictable.

EXAMPLE #1: Trap and skeet shooters often rest muzzles on their toes and point them at each other. They have almost no accidents on the range because guns are unloaded until just before they shoot. ...CHANGE CONDITIONS to a duck blind with loaded guns and the results are predictable....

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".
At Gunsite, training is on a hot range. For those who carry a gun in public, everyday life is a "hot range." It's a good idea to get used to that and learn to consistently conduct oneself accordingly.
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Old July 11, 2014, 10:28 PM   #29
JohnKSa
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Quote:
...instead of putting down the cell phone...
I don't know what it is that makes people's brains disconnect while they are talking on the phone.

An acquaintance of mine shot off one of his fingers at the range after a distraction involving a cell phone.

If I owned/operated a range, I would immediately eject and subsequently ban anyone who touched a phone while holding a gun or a gun while holding a phone.
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Old July 12, 2014, 05:34 AM   #30
Sevens
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Quote:
An interesting question comes to mind. The shooter knew he had sent the correct number of rounds down range, but didn’t know someone had stuffed his mag with the extra round.

Was this a negligent or accidental discharge?
In my view, this is a horribly negligent discharge. Slam dunk.

Someone picked up a handgun and pulled the trigger, with no intention whatsoever of even attempting to look in the chamber.
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Old July 12, 2014, 05:44 AM   #31
Sport45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45Gunner
Team Tactical Shooting is very much like flying in an aerobatic airshow in that one must develop a high level of trust in his/her fellow team members as they in you. You must be continually aware of where they are at all times as they must be aware of where you are. There must be an unimpeachable level of safety at all times while performing to the best ability of each individual and hence the team.

We are a four-man team that drills three times per week. Before each and every drill session we discuss and review the drills we are going to accomplish at the current range session, paying special attention to safety and to any maneuver(s) that requires extra special vigilance. At the end of each shooting session, we critique ourselves. However, if there is a situation that even comes close to being less than 100% safe, we stop that drill, make our guns safe, and then discuss that situation and come up with a course of action to insure that will never happen again.

Our range is a Private Club. There are no shooting booths as common to Public Ranges. For our intent and purpose, there are 4 unmarked lanes that are approximately 10 feet wide and 150 feet long. Benches are behind the shooters and are used as a place to put guns, ammo, range bags etc.

Targets, obstacles, and barriers are set out prior to each drill. Shooters begin each drill by drawing from the holster. Drills start with the command, “Shooters, load and make your gun ready.” When each shooter has accomplished that, he completes a press check, engages the safety, and places his gun into his holster raising his support hand to signal he is at the ready. At the end of a drill, all of us are downrange and the command is, “Shooters, unload your gun and make it safe.” We stop any walking/running motion, eject the magazine, run the slide open, remove a round if pertinent, do a visual inspection of the chamber, return the slide to battery, trip the trigger or engage the safety if applicable (depends upon which gun we are using), and then holster. The range then goes “Cold” and no one is allowed to take their gun out of the holster or handle any gun while any shooter is in front of the firing line.
I don't think this guy meets your standards. If it was me, he'd be off the team or I'd find someone else to play with.
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Old July 12, 2014, 10:25 AM   #32
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The excuse given by your offending team member gives all the information that is needed in my opinion. "It was an accident" is the rationalization of a guilty man. This was no accident. How you handle it up to you and your team. What happened here is a team failure, and unless changes are made in how you work together as a team it is only a matter of time before another failure occurs. You were lucky. Learn from it and move on. Good luck.
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Old July 12, 2014, 10:41 AM   #33
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Have you looked at yourselves. Hot or cold, we don't go down range without notifying loudly. "I'M GOING DOWN".

He'll never do it again, and neither will you.
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Old July 12, 2014, 11:03 AM   #34
g.willikers
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Quote:
I don't know what it is that makes people's brains disconnect while they are talking on the phone.
It actually takes considerable training to be able to talk and act at the same time.
For most folks, the brain does kind of disconnect when talking.
Same for talking and driving.
Try it for yourself to see.
Keep talking while drawing and shooting.
Most people have to stop talking to be able to do it.
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Old July 12, 2014, 11:47 AM   #35
Jim567
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Wow! I will burn that to brain,

--------

One thing that Jeff Cooper said ... made a big impression on me. It is seldom repeated. To address complacency he said that every morning when he picks up his gun he says to himself "somewhere today someone is going to have an accident with a gun - not me, not today".
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Old July 12, 2014, 06:00 PM   #36
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Treat every gun as loaded?????? Epic fail!

Holster the weapon....it won't go bang....
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Old July 12, 2014, 06:39 PM   #37
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You know, it used to go without saying, but it doesn't any more.

The first rule of safety (gun safety, power tool safety, driving safety, operating heavy equipment safety, knife safety) is:

PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND STOP DOING THINGS THAT AREN'T NECESSARY/RELATED TO WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

All other safety rules are TOTALLY useless if you're distracted from what you're doing. If you are distracted and can't pay attention to what you're doing, how can you possibly pay attention to the safety rules?
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Old July 14, 2014, 07:01 AM   #38
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Rule 5 - Don't be stupid.

I'd make him go through at least two hours of safety retraining before letting him shoot again. He would never do it again.
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Old July 14, 2014, 07:35 AM   #39
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There not point in lots of firearms safety advice on this occasion. Forget about phones and other distractions. There is one simple rule when people are down range, you do not handle or touch a firearm in any way, its that simple.
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Old July 14, 2014, 08:05 AM   #40
g.willikers
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And always remember the very first rule:
Trust No One.
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Old July 14, 2014, 10:43 AM   #41
Kimio
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I typically follow the rule if "when in doubt, check".

Rack the slide several times and visually/physically check the chamber, and follow normal range procedures, following the rules stated for said range.

I think the only time I've had a problem was what a believe is called a slam fire. Happened when I was first learning how to shoot a handgun. Loaded up a magazine, had the handgun pointed down range. Released the slide to go home and the round went off as the slide went home and loaded the round. Turned out to just be the parts being too old and worn down.

Anyway, the guy made a bad decision, if he was genuinely apologetic and upset at his mistake, then I'll let it slide, perhaps introduce a no phones on the range, they nut be kept separate from the firearms and you cannot be handling a firearm while operating their phone, and the weapon must be cleared before leaving it.

Humans are not infallible, we make mistakes, as such, we make amends to try and fix that mistake. If it happens again, then all bets off and that's when you should take more harsh disciplinary actions IMHO.
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Old July 14, 2014, 11:28 AM   #42
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimio
I typically follow the rule if "when in doubt, check"...
When in doubt? Really now? Don't you mean "always"?
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Old July 14, 2014, 12:09 PM   #43
Kimio
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Fair enough Frankettin. It's habit for me to check when I finish firing regardless. I also always drop the magazine and lock the bolt to the rear if possible. I try to make this a habit, especially if I'm not sure if there is a round in the chamber or not. I really should look into getting some chamber flags though. Can never be too safe IMO.

That was drilled into me during basic and by my uncle. Yes, indeed, always check and treat a gun as if it is loaded at any given time, even if you are sure it is not. The golden rule to gun safety, do that and you'll likely never have a negligent discharge. Weapon malfunctions not withstanding (such as the slam fire issue I mentioned earlier. In that case though, I was at the ready and had it aimed in a direction I intended to shoot on a known hot range)

Poor wording on my part, sorry about that.
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Old July 14, 2014, 12:53 PM   #44
Sevens
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Still no reply yet by OP, 45Gunner.
I wonder if he's waiting until the topic has ceased all activity before responding?

I wonder if he's going to print a hard copy of the entire discussion and suggest the person in question reads the printout?

Might I suggest that if y'all are at the range and thatguy is reading a print-out of this thread, the rest of you keep him away from all the guns, ammo, gasoline, matches, heavy equipment, power tools, prescription meds, sharp objects, holes in the ground, noxious gases, poison ivy....

...or anything else he might handle, manipulate, wander in to, fall off of, or poke himself in the eyeball with in the event he's paying too much attention to the printed thread that he forgets the cardinal rules of gun handling safety due to his preoccupation?

(yes, laid that on thick, I'll admit it. Might even come off as obnoxious, but keep in mind that an obnoxious reply in a discussion forum is still less egregious than a bullet headed down range where three guys happen to be standing.)
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Old July 14, 2014, 01:52 PM   #45
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Quote:
He said he couldn’t remember if he cleared his gun. His cell phone was in one hand and the gun in the other. The magazine was removed but instead of putting down the cell phone to rack the slide to visually check the chamber, he pointed the gun down range and pulled the trigger.
I have been watching this thread for a few days and waiting for someone to say this explicitly, but it has not happened:

This is not the way you clear a gun.

This seems to me to be such a basic failure that I would have a very difficult time trusting the guy. Poison ivy might be OK, because he can only harm himself, but the rest of Sevens's list is valid.
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Old July 14, 2014, 02:00 PM   #46
Sevens
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While I agree with you completely that it's a horrendous way to clear a gun... we have to keep in mind that dropping the hammer on an empty chamber is pretty much explicitly what they order in most competition, after (of course!) showing clear to the RO. So what he did was a very familiar and "normal" procedure in competition...

But absolutely, the guy is (vehemently, IMO) a serious problem and he needs to GO AWAY.
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Old July 14, 2014, 04:21 PM   #47
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I understand your argument, Sevens, but there is a huge difference between "dropping the hammer on an empty chamber . . . after (of course!) showing clear to the RO" and "he couldn’t remember if he cleared his gun."

But yes, you and I agree on the big picture. Care and attention was dangerously lacking.
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Old July 15, 2014, 04:46 AM   #48
Sevens
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Oh, it was NEVER meant to be any manner of defense for his actions. Frankly, I'm angry about this guy and I'm nowhere and no how connected to this entire thing, except via this thread.

All I was saying is that dropping the hammer on an empty chamber is actually taught and, well, required in many (most?) competition circles.

Of course, that EMPTY CHAMBER has been visually checked and confirmed by two people before the hammer is dropped on it. This guy shouldn't be shooting handguns in any place where people... go.
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Old July 15, 2014, 06:53 AM   #49
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I won't speak to whether or not He should be dropped from the team as I wasn't there and don't know him.
As to negligent discharges, I believe Jeff Cooper covered the subject well enough:
1. ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded
2. NEVER point a gun at anything you're not willing to destroy
3. Keep finger OFF trigger until ready to fire
4. ALWAYS know your target and what's behind it

Maybe a simplistic response, but these rules have served me well for a very long time.
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Old July 15, 2014, 11:19 AM   #50
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Quote:
There is no such thing as an Accidental Discharge, only Negligent Discharges......
As someone who investigated shooting incidents, I respectfully disagree. An Accidental Discharge is where the shooter did not intentionally fire the weapon. A Negligent Discharge occurs when the shooter does intend to shoot but misses (or shoots through) the intended target creating the risk of striking someone or something unintended because of their action.

Neither one is worse than the other as both put people at risk and/or create liability for the shooter (and his/her agency). For quite some time now action has been taken when an accidental discharge occurs but (fortunately) negligence is now getting some much needed attention. Anyone who has attended recent NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor schools know that having 1 or more rounds unaccounted for (misses) during qualification is an automatic fail. Many LE agencies are going with this example as well to make sure that it is documented that staff are trained and tested on not putting the public at risk. YMMV
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