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Old July 8, 2014, 12:11 AM   #1
gyvel
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Chipotle, Target and now Ikea

Apparently an Ikea store in College Park, MD asked a Takoma Park chief of police who, although off duty, was still in uniform between shifts on July 4th, to either exit the store or leave his gun in his police cruiser in the parking lot.

Here is the link to the story on MSNBC News:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...e-ikea-n150276

It seems to me that, slowly but surely, a line is being drawn in the sand.

I have always labored under the impression that a cop in uniform was more or less obligated by custom, if not regulation to go almost anywhere he wants while armed. (With obvious exceptions such as airplanes, etc.)

Last edited by gyvel; July 8, 2014 at 12:23 AM.
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Old July 8, 2014, 12:31 AM   #2
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Should be a management opening pretty soon.
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Old July 8, 2014, 12:45 AM   #3
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Perhaps this is more of a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" type of situation.

I do think I agree with kilimanjaro:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilimanjaro
Should be a management opening pretty soon.
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Old July 8, 2014, 03:47 AM   #4
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At least they're sticking with a "no exceptions" policy, even for the police. Way to stick to their "guns" on the issue...oh wait. /sarcasm

Common sense isn't so common these days, or so it seems. Indeed there does appear to be a line being slowly drawn in the sand as more and more states/cities begin to choose a side on this already highly polarized topic.
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Old July 8, 2014, 10:42 AM   #5
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Quote:
At least they're sticking with a "no exceptions" policy, even for the police.
No, they're not. Not exactly.

A statement from corporate HQ stated that they are sorry, and that their "no weapons" policy DID contain an exception for the police. And that they are taking steps to ensure that ALL their employees know this.

SO, their actual policy is unchanged, it is "no guns" for ordinary folks, guns ok for police.

The store official who told the police chief "no gun" was in error. He was
incorrectly interpreting store policy.

There might be a vacancy at that store soon. Or he might just be rewarded on his dedication to the store, and educated better as to what the actual policy is.
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Old July 8, 2014, 12:13 PM   #6
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44 AMP wrote;
Quote:
he might just be rewarded on his dedication to the store, and educated better as to what the actual policy is.
This is quite likely, the investment retail stores make in training personnel, particularly in "loss prevention" is quite sizable. He may not get a reward but, he will likely still be employed.

The Chief stated in the article;
Quote:
"And I am not going to lock my gun in a commercial parking lot, with people watching me put it in there. That's just ludicrous."
It is equally as "ludicrous" for the rest of us as well.
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Old July 8, 2014, 12:29 PM   #7
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Is anyone aware (Glenn?) of statistics on armed robberies in stores with "no weapons" signs vs. no restrictions?
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Old July 8, 2014, 12:34 PM   #8
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This isn't really related to the whole Chipotle/Target controversy. Ikea has been against carry for as long as I can remember. They've been quite clear on their policy.

What some gun people take as an affront, they consider a slight overstepping on policy. I doubt the clerk will be disciplined.
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Old July 8, 2014, 12:38 PM   #9
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Most companies simply want to avoid controversy and offend as few potential customers as possible. As Bloomberg and his Blooming-Idiots engage in their misinformation and strong arm tactics along with the radical open carry crowd we’ll see more and more of this. It’s sort of disheartening as many state legislatures are returning more gun rights to the people there may end up being fewer places you can actually carry.
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Old July 8, 2014, 02:07 PM   #10
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A little humor?

This article http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society...es-a-gun-video is about a restaurant in Colorado where open carry is encouraged and the wait-staff all carry.

Article quotes a sign on the front door that says, “Guns are welcome on premises. Please keep all weapons holstered, unless the need arises. In such cases, judicious marksmanship is appreciated.”

I understand this is not Chipotle, Target, or Ikea but sometimes ine has to look around to get the bigger picture.
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Old July 8, 2014, 02:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Article quotes a sign on the front door that says, “Guns are welcome on premises. Please keep all weapons holstered, unless the need arises. In such cases, judicious marksmanship is appreciated.”
That might work in a single-location, family-owned business. The owner knows everybody, and he knows they're safe with firearms.

For a national corporation, that's a big heck no. Ownership can't know everybody and monitor everything. The fear of liability kills that.
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Old July 8, 2014, 04:36 PM   #12
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Quote:
Is anyone aware (Glenn?) of statistics on armed robberies in stores with "no weapons" signs vs. no restrictions?
No such stats exist. Convenience stores (often lumped with gas stations that are often convenience stores) are still at the top of the list of businesses robbed and very few are posted. Other prime targets are grocery stores, liquor stores, fast food eateries, and banks that usually are not posted either.

If such stats did exist, they would have to take into account states/locations where postings carry the weight of law and where they do not, and other factors.
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Old July 8, 2014, 08:20 PM   #13
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I don't think such stats exist. As DNS mentions, robberies occur quite a bit in nonposted stores and we see shootouts on the news here in TX.

I'd bet even in our gun friendly state - the vast majority of stores have no carriers, esp. due to corporate policies.
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Old July 8, 2014, 09:09 PM   #14
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So are these stores actually posting "no firearms" signs which comply with state laws on concealed carry or are they simply asking customers not to carry them, especially openly? I haven't been to Chipotle in a while and didn't notice one at Target when I was there over the weekend (if I didn't notice it, it can't be conspicuous as required by state law). No IKEA around here.
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Old July 8, 2014, 09:12 PM   #15
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No compliant signs in the TX stores near me.
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Old July 9, 2014, 07:10 AM   #16
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I understand the corporate liability issues and respect them.
I also appreciate companies that ask gun owners not to carry inside their store as this freaks some folk out.

For me this issue is not liability, political correctness or just common courtesy, the issue is personal safety.
None of these businesses guarantee your safety while in their stores so either you go defenseless or you break the rules / laws.

Here in Texas there is a state authorized sign (30-06 sign)
If this sign is posted then no firearms allowed inside and you take you money else where.
No 30-06 sign, be sure your concealed carry stay covered unless needed.
They can post some corporate no guns signs but it has no teeth under state law.
If they see you are armed they can ask you to leave but they can’t stop you from entering unless the proper and legally recognized sign is posted at the door.

I don’t get upset about it. These are choices.
You have the choice to protection under the 2A but also business owners also have a choice to protect their interests.
You have the choice to shop there or down the street.
Just like the business owner has the choice to refuse service to you for carrying a gun in their store; it’s a choice.

We know where the media stands on gun control.
Armed protests outside of these places of business IMHO do not help our cause.
The media make the fight on the facts of guns and deaths; we need to make the focus on the lives saved by armed citizens.
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Old July 22, 2014, 11:49 AM   #17
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How it's handled south of the border

First of all Mexico has a gun ban in theory anyway. But I've yet to see any non-official citizen carry anything. They even allow pepper spray if there is a locked position on the trigger.

Second - there is very little shooting of the illegal variety south of the border as compared to any major US city.

Third - Mexico has a no entry law for All places serving alcohol and a few others and this applies, and is posted openly, to police and military. Most police officials keep their weapons at the police station when off duty.

Fourth - my former career infantry and law enforcement background has me feeling far far safer south of the border than north of the border. In short it's much more dangerous in any USA city than in Mexico but like most places common sense rules. You don't go into certain neighborhoods at night and that included Washington D.C. and be seen at the ATM machine. The largest group of gangbangers in the country can be found in that city.

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Old July 22, 2014, 12:15 PM   #18
Glenn E. Meyer
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A touch of Google brought up 60,000 people killed in Mexico during the Drug Wars.

So what's the point?
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Old July 22, 2014, 05:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fingers
Fourth - my former career infantry and law enforcement background has me feeling far far safer south of the border than north of the border. In short it's much more dangerous in any USA city than in Mexico but like most places common sense rules. You don't go into certain neighborhoods at night and that included Washington D.C. and be seen at the ATM machine. The largest group of gangbangers in the country can be found in that city.
Mexico safer than American cities? Have you been reading the news?

My wife's cousin is a professor at a university in Mexico. About a year ago he sold his condo to move into a smaller condo that's in a gated complex with armed security. That's for a native. When he visited us in the U.S. about three years ago the idea was raised for us to follow up with a visit to him. He looked at us and said, "She can come if she feels lucky. Americans are not safe in Mexico -- you don't come."
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Old July 22, 2014, 05:19 PM   #20
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Mexico really isn't the subject of this thread.
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Old July 22, 2014, 06:23 PM   #21
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Second - there is very little shooting of the illegal variety south of the border as compared to any major US city.
Really? Seriously?

Soo..finding 50-60 bodies at a time killed by gangs/cartels is LEGAL? I would have thought those murders were of the illegal variety....

Really, learn where the sarcasm smiley face is, and use it!

All the signs in the world don't stop determined people. Posting a "nogun" sign at a business is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to CYA by the business. Its a sad commentary on the state of things today that a business must put up a sign specifically saying "you may not..." or someone will try to hold them responsible when a third party breaks not just store rules but the law, as well.

The idea that not having a "nogun" sign somehow allows or encourages someone to criminally use a gun in their store is laughable on a common sense level, unfortunately, common sense things are often not recognized by the courts and lawyers.

If putting up a useless sign allows a business to get out of the "deep pockets" category in the eyes of a jury, then of course they are going to do it.
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Old July 22, 2014, 07:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Really? Seriously?

Soo..finding 50-60 bodies at a time killed by gangs/cartels is LEGAL? I would have thought those murders were of the illegal variety....

Really, learn where the sarcasm smiley face is, and use it!

All the signs in the world don't stop determined people. Posting a "nogun" sign at a business is nothing more than a pathetic attempt to CYA by the business. Its a sad commentary on the state of things today that a business must put up a sign specifically saying "you may not..." or someone will try to hold them responsible when a third party breaks not just store rules but the law, as well.

The idea that not having a "nogun" sign somehow allows or encourages someone to criminally use a gun in their store is laughable on a common sense level, unfortunately, common sense things are often not recognized by the courts and lawyers.

If putting up a useless sign allows a business to get out of the "deep pockets" category in the eyes of a jury, then of course they are going to do it.
Well said! This is why I'm glad that, in Texas, a "no gun" sign has to be worded and displayed in a specific way in order to have any legal standing. Many businesses put up a "gunbuster" sign just to keep the lawyers & insurers happy, but give legal CHL holders a wink....
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Old July 24, 2014, 12:01 PM   #23
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To consider whether Mexico is "safer" or not, you also need to look at other crimes, such as kidnapping.

Kidnapping has reached epidemic proportions in Mexico. Worse, it no longer targets just the rich (many of whom have hired their own armed security), but everyone is now a target, including Americans...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/08/world/mexico-kidnapping/

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/latin-am...-mexico-n80751

How many kidnappings are there in Mexico these days?

"Some 1,700 kidnappings were reported across Mexico in 2013, nearly 10 percent of them in Morelos. Another 278 abductions were reported nationwide and 34 in Morelos in the first two months of this year, according to the government.

Analysts say as few as 1 in 5 abductions are ever reported, in part because victims’ families fear police agents are involved with the gangs."


Yeah, Mexico is a haven of placidity, safety, security, and calm.
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Old July 24, 2014, 12:13 PM   #24
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BACK to IKEA, I carried in there the other day. No signs on the door, no hassles, no issues........

In short NO big deal
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Old July 24, 2014, 10:32 PM   #25
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After Target made their statement I wrote them a polite letter that I would be taking my business else where and included a receipt for what I had spent on the Sat. before which was over $300.00 that could have been spent at their store if they made better decisions.
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