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Old July 4, 2014, 01:52 PM   #26
gyvel
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I don't have any statistics, nor would I know where to find them, but, given the relative condition of most 03-A3s that I have seen, I doubt very many of them ever saw front line service. I've seen a couple photos of Marines in the Pacific using them, but that's about it; Most of them seem to have other weapons, mostly Garands and carbines. 03A3s that look like they have seen some use are usually from VFW halls, ROTC or reserve guard units.

What is said about Swiss rifles never having seen battle action can also be said about Swedish Mausers; Sweden was another neutral country that escaped invasion by the Germans, mainly because, much like the Swiss, they were playing both sides of the fence. Other than with a few volunteer troops that served in Finland against the Russians, the Swedish Mauser was never "battle proven" either.

I think the insane prices we see today are the result of what I call "collectormania." Everything is a "collector's item" nowadays. US population has doubled since my childhood, and there are more people interested in these things. I have stated before that there is a growing demand and a dwindling finite supply of these items.

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Old July 4, 2014, 02:56 PM   #27
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interesting, I was under the impression that the beech was phased in much earlier than 41.

I couldn't find any segregated lists... a lot of that is in swiss too, which I unfortunately am unable to speaky.

Quote:
What is said about Swiss rifles never having seen battle action can also be said about Swedish Mausers; Sweden was another neutral country that escaped invasion by the Germans, mainly because, much like the Swiss, they were playing both sides of the fence. Other than with a few volunteer troops that served in Finland against the Russians, the Swedish Mauser was never "battle proven" either.
I suppose that is why generally speaking swedish command much lower prices than the German variants.
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Old July 4, 2014, 04:01 PM   #28
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7.5x55 swiss is not really an obsolete cartridge. Swiss Co-Axial machine guns still use the round.

Hypothetically, it would have been better than a 1903 in war, in my opinion, due the the straight pull bolt which allows for greater rate of fire, detachable magazine, 6+1 capacity, and the fact that they are largely in part more accurate.

I just don't think, in World War 2, that the Springfield would have been a very practical weapon other than by snipers. That's just my opinion

As for the stock, a European Beech is a very sturdy wood.
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Old July 4, 2014, 05:23 PM   #29
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Hypothetically, it would have been better than a 1903 in war, in my opinion, due the the straight pull bolt which allows for greater rate of fire, detachable magazine, 6+1 capacity, and the fact that they are largely in part more accurate.
the rate of fire is negated by the fact that you have to remove your cheek from the stock to cycle meaning that you lose your sight picture and have to re-acquire it after every shot.

the detachable magazine is only a real advantage if the swiss would have issued spare magazines with their rifles, which I could be mistaken but I believe they did not and since swiss chargers only held 5 rounds, the 6 round mag is almost as big of an irritant as it was an advantage.

I suppose that I have to give you the point for 7.5 still being used but it is still a very uncommon cartridge on this side of the pond.
Quote:
I just don't think, in World War 2, that the Springfield would have been a very practical weapon other than by snipers. That's just my opinion
as for springfield being poor for military? look at what people were using at the onset of WWII
Japanese used Arisakas, bolt action with a straight bolt handle, 5 round capacity. leaf sights or peeps(poorly mounted to rear of barrel)

Germany used K98 mausers, bent or straight bolt handles(depending on manufacture) and 5 round capacity. sights were leaf sights.

Brits, bolt actions, bent bolts, 10 round magazines, peep sights(mounted to rear of receiver, most effective placement of peeps)

Russia used the mosin nagant, 5 round mag, straight bolt handles, leaf sights, all very crudely designed for the war production rifles.

Italy used Carcanos, 6 shot en bloc clips, leaf sights, straight bolt handles,

when you compare the US Springfield it was perfectly on par with the service rifles of the time: bent bolt, 5 round capacity, leaf sights(the A3 replaced this with a very effective rear peep sight on the rear of the receiver). the 1903A3 has nearly as much of a reputation as the K31 for accuracy.
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Old July 4, 2014, 06:28 PM   #30
Mosin-Marauder
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You have to do the same with the Springfield. The bolt throw is that car back.

The Swiss issued 6 round charger clips. The detachable magazine is just an easier way to load the magazine if your runout of chargers or another soldier falls you can take the magazine from his rifle.

It wouldn't have been practical because the US had the M1 and M1 Carbine. They were put into service before the war started (exclusion being M1 carbine).
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Old July 4, 2014, 07:18 PM   #31
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Of course you can cycle a k31 bolt without moving your head.
You just have to have the correct head position, that being up rather high with your mouth wide open.
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Old July 4, 2014, 07:19 PM   #32
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lol
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Old July 4, 2014, 07:24 PM   #33
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Quote:
the 1903A3 has nearly as much of a reputation as the K31 for accuracy.
Was its ammunition? As with the 6.5x55 Swedish Mausers, the ammo was just as much, if not more, the reason for the rifles' accuracy at the time.


Quote:
the K31, albeit a very fine battle rifle has no historical value as a weapon that won or lost a war, therefore the Springfields have more collectors value.
You mean it has no sentimental value, in a patriotic sense. I can sorta agree with that. To say it is not historical is incorrect, however, being a highly advanced, incredibly well made, and probably the most expensive bolt rifle ever issued to main-line troops, which has seen as much if not more post-war sporting use success per-rifle than any other. I won't even get into how undervalued the guns still are now that ammunition is widely available, in comparison to 1903-variants which have long since bid up to collector's prices and whose ammunition is no longer attainable for .50$/round in match quality.

Quote:
K31s for the most part had beech stocks with very few having walnut. walnut is a sturdier wood and guns with walnut stocks have better resale value. American service rifles from 1903 on all used walnut stocks all the way up to the M16.
Other than beech showing dents/stains more than the darker walnut, they are exactly the same quality and sturdiness as each other. Americans like dark rifles, hence we bid the more-common walnut guns higher. That's really all there is to it. To be honest, since the guns are all non-historical and all, it behooves buyers to acquire as recent a model as possible for less-worn components and bore; it will likely be a beech. Walnut is the closest thing to a decent stock wood that Americans grew natively in quantity (it happens to be really good, too). Our only other options would be something like pine or maple; nowhere near as good a stock material.

Quote:
in the case of the 1903A4, only an estimated 30,000 were ever made making them extremely rare in comparison to the K31.
Getting back to question of how they managed to win the war... The Swiss guns saw just as much training use during the war to at least reasonably prove their mettle; do keep that in mind. A great many were used, and trained with regularly, and there were few complaints. To be specific, the rifles were never privation-tested, but I'm not sure the 1903A3 was much, either.

Quote:
You have to do the same with the Springfield. The bolt throw is that car back.
I'm convinced, since I do not have to move my head on my K31, that the stock shape difference and personal preference are the culprit, here. I've even heard of people snugging up on the receiver and getting nose-bit by the ring upon recoil. I think the super-straight stock of the K31 just makes people want to lean more forward. A clamp on St. Marie scope and one of those awesome leather lace-up cheek risers that "someone" around here has () would likely make you lean more to the side and make it a non-issue.

Quote:
the rate of fire is negated by the fact that you have to remove your cheek from the stock to cycle meaning that you lose your sight picture and have to re-acquire it after every shot.
I have found the K31 can be prone to short-stroking or FTF during extended rapid-fire; my suspicion is that it is mostly short-stroking, coupled with a somewhat weak mag spring force by the time the last round or two are up to bat. I might have to 'jimmy' the bolt handle a little when this occurs slowing me slightly. The 1903 is a bit more robust, here, and the stock/bolt design do make reacquiring the trigger and sights a bit faster, but let's be honest; aside from bragging rights, rapid fire is about the least important factor in a bolt gun. We had M1 Garands and (later) STGW57's for that. Besides, I thought we were talking about precision sniping guns with magnified optics. No one's doing a Mad Minute with a 4X objective scope with vintage eye-relief reciprocating in front of their eyeball. That stupid target (not "field") drill was the source of this whole dumb 'rivalry' as far as I can tell.

Quote:
TCB, tell me about your 57. What ammunition are you using? The 57 is fully capable of moa with a decent scope, and even with the diopter once you're used to it. Something's not right.
GP11, nothing else will do (and I don't want to tempt the rifle's delay timing. I'll never fully trust delayed blowback further than it can throw pieces of the rifle). With the...interesting ergonomics fit for a 8ft Strong Man Competition contestant, and crude (by comparison to the K31) trigger, I expect and always understood it was slightly more open than 1MOA (like 1-2, instead). The current 'spread' is solely due to me being new to iron sights, and peep sights in particular. I'm better with a K31's partridge sights, but my FN49 and STGW I'm still yet to have an epiphany with. Most of it is just practice; the sturmgewehr is a fairly uncomfortable gun to shoot, and the surprisingly mild (even for its weight) recoil has nothing to do with it. The trigger's like 3/8" wide, the pistol grip 4" or so below the bore, and the stock like sighting down a rubberized 2x4. I've also got a reproduction receiver, this being a re-weld, which may or may not be affecting the rigidity and dynamics of the whole thing. The sights are off because I skipped a step when clamping it all up for re-weld (not doing that again, although I got away with it once before doing the AR70 )

Attached is that beast with the accessories I've accumulated so far (for some reason standard Energa practice grenades fit the Swiss launcher profile). The fitted drum is a 63 round DPM conversion setup I'm still debugging --looks totes menacing, though

TCB
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File Type: jpg P3220065.JPG (243.1 KB, 5 views)
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Old July 4, 2014, 07:27 PM   #34
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It wouldn't have been practical because the US had the M1 and M1 Carbine. They were put into service before the war started (exclusion being M1 carbine).
by december of 1941 there were only 500,000 M1 garands, there were several million 1903s, which do you think saw more front line service throughout most of the war? throughout the first couple years of the war the USMC saw nothing but the 1903, the Army had first dibs on M1s an the marines were stuck with springfields. the springfield is also plenty easy to load with or without chargers, regardless of detachable magazine.

the M1 carbine was only issued to non-frontline units like artillery and logistics.
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Old July 4, 2014, 07:38 PM   #35
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I wouldn't buy a St.marie scope mount. The Swiss Products mount beats the heck out of it.
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Old July 4, 2014, 08:33 PM   #36
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Nobody going to take the bait??
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Old July 4, 2014, 08:37 PM   #37
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Well, Swiss+Swiss can only equal good things. Don't even know what a Saint Marie is.
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Old July 4, 2014, 08:40 PM   #38
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For the past 17 years there's always been that confusion. The St.Marie mount is the Swiss Products mount. St.marie is the name of the Family that owns it.
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Old July 4, 2014, 09:12 PM   #39
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Well, that was quite stupid of me to say, I apologize.
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Old July 4, 2014, 09:22 PM   #40
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No need for an apology. For the past 10 years we've been trying to disconnect those names. It began as St.Marie the first year, and then when we became a LLC and having distributors we did our best to untangle those two names, but to this day we still hear our product line referred to as " a St.Marie Diopter, or a St.Marie Brake", etc.
We finally gave up trying to correct people.
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Old July 4, 2014, 09:54 PM   #41
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Yeah, and in a couple years we'll have a Dodge Barracuda . I always figured St. Marie was a maker/owner of a specific model of mount, which sounds close enough to the reality (in terms of defining a specific product). Good to know Swiss Products is the one go-to shop, anymore

TCB
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Old July 4, 2014, 09:55 PM   #42
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Well, if I did want to modify/sporterize my beloved K-31, I would most likely choose you guys. I don't do much research in aftermarket stuff, as I try to keep my rifles milspec.
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Old July 4, 2014, 11:10 PM   #43
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The great majority of the entire line is non-invasive. No changes to the issue rifle are required.
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Old July 5, 2014, 12:03 AM   #44
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I know, I just want to keep my rifle the way it is currently. I've only fired 6 rounds through it and it grouped pretty well at 50 yards.
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Old July 5, 2014, 02:25 AM   #45
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Quote:
Besides, I thought we were talking about precision sniping guns with magnified optics. No one's doing a Mad Minute with a 4X objective scope with vintage eye-relief reciprocating in front of their eyeball.
I was responding to these comments
Quote:
[1903,1903A3,1903A4 are] ridiculously overpriced. You can get a far better rifle for less money(K-31 for example). I was considering getting one until I saw the price and I learned about the K-31.
Quote:
Hypothetically, it would have been better than a 1903 in war, in my opinion, due the the straight pull bolt which allows for greater rate of fire, detachable magazine, 6+1 capacity, and the fact that they are largely in part more accurate.

I just don't think, in World War 2, that the Springfield would have been a very practical weapon other than by snipers. That's just my opinion
the conversation spread a bit from snipers to general issue variants.

I'm done beating the dead horse though, time to get back to the original intent of this thread.

I see quite a few recommendations for K31 over scoping an existing rifle.
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Old July 5, 2014, 03:06 AM   #46
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Quote:
by december of 1941 there were only 500,000 M1 garands, there were several million 1903s, which do you think saw more front line service throughout most of the war?
By Dec. 1941, there were less than 1 1/2 million Springfields. The only "front line" service Springfields saw (other than some used later by Marines) was in defensive actions in the Pacific against the Japanese. Remington was asked to produce the 1903, then the 03-A3, but, by the time they had geared up for large-scale production, Garand production had begun to catch up for the needs of the Army. Springfields were relegated to rear echelon and National Guard units, and many were never issued at all. The first real major combat the U.S. armed forces saw were in North Africa in 1942. I don't have statistics to know how many Springfields, if any, were used in North Africa, but I doubt it was a lot.
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Old July 5, 2014, 04:51 AM   #47
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Tahunua, arguments aside, i think you would really enjoy a K-31. Considering how accurate they are with irons, I can only imagine what a scope would do. Good luck with your future purchase (maybe you'll get a good a deal as I got ).
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Old July 5, 2014, 12:19 PM   #48
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Quote:
You can get a far better rifle for less money
To be fair, the cheapest 03A3 on Gunbroker is like 650$, and generic 1903's that aren't sporterized seem to start around 500$. Granted, the 1903's do seem to be in very good condition all around, with slightly nicer stocks, but slightly uglier metal (just because park doesn't wear quite as nicely as bluing). So, the difference in "deal" isn't as stark as it was when the Swiss were under 300$, but it is still there, nonetheless.

Quote:
I see quite a few recommendations for K31 over scoping an existing rifle.
And a good chunk of this is because scoping the K31 itself is also pretty easy; best of both worlds

TCB
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Old July 5, 2014, 12:41 PM   #49
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Comparing the US Springfield to the Swiss K31 is ignoring the background. The US rifle was designed for mass production in the standard American industrial system. It was perfect for gearing up to a ten-million man Army. Absent the Enfield contracts with the British in 1917, we would have produced Switzerland's annual output of K31s (then K11s) in a single day or week.

The Swiss K31, was not designed for large-scale mass production. The Swiss could produce thousands of rifles in a year, that was sufficient to arm their entire civilian population if needed, and keep the factory open.

Which one is better? It's Ford v. Chevy.

Both were obsolete in the mid-1930s, as a general-issue military arm.
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Old July 9, 2014, 01:24 AM   #50
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Walking the Walk

.

Even if your form is perfect --

Hitting your spot at long range, and especially shooting little cluster groups, is all about dealing with one issue.

W.I.N.D . . . .


And sometimes

m..i.r….A…G..E

I don't give a damn if a person has a rifle that can shoot through the same
hole in an indoor range from a machine rest. Conditions can make a fool out
of an armchair sniper's "consistent" small group braggadocio.

Try actually doing some shooting at 4 or 500 yards sometime and
you will immediately see what I'm talking about. Even at 250 with
much condition at all it's tough nuts on tight groups.

Except for the really experienced and highly trained rifleman, taking shots at game over 300 yards is totally unethical. I thought I would throw that out
there while I was thinking about it.

Tinker with this program on the advanced setting and see what just a light wind variation does to trajectory --

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-re...ics-calculator

End of sermon. Do I hear an Amen ?

.
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