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Old June 30, 2014, 09:16 PM   #1
tahunua001
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looking for input.

hello all,
for my next gun related purchase I am looking at a couple different options.
1. buying a K31
or
2. scoping my M41B mauser.

on one hand it would be nice to have a sniper I could reach out to 500+ yards with again but then again who can say no to a new gun?(I don't own K31 yet). I restored a M1903A4 a couple years back and if there's one thing I hate is a money pit sniper repro but on the other hand I also hate stocking up on reloading supplies and ammo for new calibers.

decisions decisions...

given a $400 budget(including ammo and reloading components, or scope and rail) which would you go with?

oh and just as a side note, I would probably be going with a modern scope style, do the repro scope rails use 1" rings?
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Old June 30, 2014, 09:49 PM   #2
DennisCA
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I would go with K31, several vendors to choose from.
I bought a K-11 from Simpsons, LTD last year (all matching with matching bayo) and very happy with it.

For your viewing pleasure:
[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

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Old July 1, 2014, 11:02 AM   #3
kilimanjaro
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The K31s are disappearing, I would buy one of those now.

You can buy a scope whenever you want one, but not a K31.

Some of the repro mounts use inch rings, some come with shim sets. If you don't have a scope already, you can just get a 30mm tube and match up, no shims needed.

Last spring I bought a nicely sportered Enfield, .30-06, with a good Bushnell scope, for $330 out the door at a local pawnshop. Pretty inexpensive 'sniper', I'd say. Certainly easier than building one.
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Old July 1, 2014, 12:11 PM   #4
tahunua001
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I say sniper in the literal sense. it was used by a military for the purpose of long range single target termination. not in the sense that a savage model 10 tactical in 308 is a sniper because that's what the guys on sniper's hide recommended.

sporters can be nice guns if done correctly but none of them are true snipers.
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Old July 1, 2014, 10:33 PM   #5
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.

All I have to add is that a K31 will "reach out to 500 yards" just as well as
the Swedish mauser. Both rifles are very accurate. The K31 will have a
better trigger, unless the M41B has been worked over. You can easily
scope the K31 with a clamp on mount. GP11 is very accurate ammunition if
you don't handload. The K31 is a target rifle disguised as a service rifle.
No doubt about it.


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Old July 1, 2014, 10:42 PM   #6
tahunua001
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Quote:
All I have to add is that a K31 will "reach out to 500 yards" just as well as
the Swedish mauser.
not if I can't see anything at 500 yards...
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Old July 2, 2014, 04:01 AM   #7
gyvel
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Quote:
not if I can't see anything at 500 yards...
LOL!!!! Time for glasses...
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Old July 2, 2014, 06:17 AM   #8
tahunua001
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I already have glasses, I'm saving for lasik however 500 yards is still a pretty big step even if they can correct better than my glasses can. I need zoom to reliably hit at that range.
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Old July 2, 2014, 08:17 AM   #9
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Unfortunately, I'm in the same condition you are. I used to be able to see and hit the target at 500 meters. But that was 30+ years ago. Even with glasses shooting that distance is no longer an open sight option.
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Old July 2, 2014, 09:18 AM   #10
tahunua001
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yep, poor eyesight is kindof a curse I inherited from my father's side of the family. I have plenty of rifles accurate enough to hit at 500 meters but the only one I could actually accomplish this with on a regular basis was my M1903A4 sniper which I traded off because I was sick of dumping dollars into the restoration project... I would think the swede would be as accurate or pretty close assuming the rings and inserts are stable but I haven't seen any reviews on them...
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Old July 3, 2014, 05:33 PM   #11
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K-31 go for it buddy!
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Old July 3, 2014, 07:27 PM   #12
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...one of us, one of us, one of us...

TCB
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Old July 3, 2014, 07:32 PM   #13
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I always get the guns first, while I can. Then I get the frills. Frills will always be available
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Old July 3, 2014, 08:30 PM   #14
zfk55
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Snipers........ sniper rifles.......... Really?
If you believe all the hype at forums like Snipers Hide, you're going to spend bucks.... lots of bucks for no good reason at all.
I wonder how many whistles, bells, tactical, uber tactical and tactical extreme things Carlos Hathcock used? Winchester Model 70 .30-06 using an 8-power Unertl scope. Nothing more at that period of his service.

Any rifle capable of MOA or better at range with a competent shooter behind the trigger qualifies.

Who was he? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Warrior

There are few original issue military rifles that are Sniper designated. This is one of them. The zfk55 Sniper issued to a designated marksman. Never named as a "sniper".



And with the right scope, it can consistently produce these 5 round groups at 250 yards.



This k31 is not designated as a sniper.



But it too is capable of this kind of group at 200 yards as are a very many issue k31s.



The k31 and it's mates, the 1911, k11 and the rare (in the US) zfk55 Swiss Sniper Rifle are a rarity in another category. A Military series of rifles rifles designed around a specific cartridge for accuracy and performance.

The intent of this cartridge/rifle mating was to hit a human in the kill zone at range and they performed as intended. Not many production rifles are capable of doing that. The very great majority of these rifles perform extremely well as issued.

So do you really think that a career sniper, either active or retired, would go on a supposed sniper forum and talk about his profession? Maybe.... but it would be the rare one.

If you have the performance capable rifle, all you need is the training to use it effectively. There are schools, and after graduation, you won't have to just talk-the-talk. You'll also walk-the-walk.

Take your time as quickly as you can and............ stay low.
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Old July 4, 2014, 12:53 AM   #15
tahunua001
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Quote:
If you believe all the hype at forums like Snipers Hide, you're going to spend bucks.... lots of bucks for no good reason at all.
precisely why I don't belong to snipers hide anymore... one too many sub $1000 products I inquired about were condemned as garbage.. I wonder what they would have told me about my 1903A4?
non free floated barrel, non turreted-non nightforce scope, non 2 stage trigger, non removable magazine, not 308= garbage on snipers hide, never mind that it was used by US snipers for nearly 30 years.
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Old July 4, 2014, 08:37 AM   #16
zfk55
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03, 03A3, 03A4, among the finest military issue rifles ever produced.


Sniper: The nomenclature is English, coined during British India campaign, but the role as we understand it today is a definitively American concept, conceived out of necessity during the War of Independence. It was the theory that well placed shots could make up for a lack of military resources and it was the early Colonial hunters, farmers and other self made "expert marksmen" (i.e. those shooters who could consistently hit a 7 inch target at 250 yards using a Pennsylvania Long Rifle) that gave it wing.

It's initial psychological impact on the British in 1775 was brutal. By selectively targeting officers and non-coms rather than foot soldiers, smaller American forces could completely compromise British chain of command and create mayhem in their ranks--the invader's terror made all the more maddenly as their enemy rolled back like fog into the pines. They promptly termed the practice of "sniping" barbaric (the British also regularly starved Patriot prisoners to death) and eventually lost their North American colony to the people who lived there
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Old July 4, 2014, 11:08 AM   #17
tahunua001
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I am well aware of the nomenclature... I'm not sure what is prompting the posts regarding the definition of a sniper. I am not, nor do I claim to be a sniper, however my rifle was designed specifically for use by a sniper(or whatever the swedish military called them at the time), which makes the M41 mauser a sniper rifle, just as the enfield no4 T, 1903A4, select model 70s, PU 19/30s, ZVT40s, G43s, and type 97 Arisakas are all sniper rifles even though I doubt many of the people that own them are snipers.
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Old July 4, 2014, 11:31 AM   #18
zfk55
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I realize that, and that was not my intention. Just simple explanations for the novices as to the origin of the term.
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Old July 4, 2014, 11:37 AM   #19
tahunua001
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ahh, makes sense, no harm, no foul.
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Old July 4, 2014, 11:59 AM   #20
Mosin-Marauder
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03, 03A3, 03A4, among the finest military issue rifles ever produced.
And ridiculously overpriced. You can get a far better rifle for less money(K-31 for example). I was considering getting one until I saw the price and I learned about the K-31.
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Old July 4, 2014, 12:06 PM   #21
barnbwt
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Quote:
Take your time as quickly as you can and............ stay low.
Quote:
An'' ole' Brer' Rabbit, he set in de bushes, he watch an' he wait, lay low an' he don' say nuffin'
Ohhhh...now I get it. I'd always wondered why the Uncle Remus quote; didn't put 2 + ZFK together till just now

I really need to buckle down and get my rebuilt STGW57 dialed in, and practice on it to see what groups its Hammerli barrel is capable of. Those groups of yours are insane, ZFK. I'm tickled with 4" at 100 yards with the factory irons (ever shrinking with practice, but takes time). I know the STGW's are not as precise as a bolt rifle, but I was getting 3" at 50 yards just trying to get on paper (2 ft right, 1 ft down --shoulda done that bore-sighting before burning those welds, all right )

TCB
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Old July 4, 2014, 01:11 PM   #22
zfk55
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In all fairness, those groups were fired from the Accurite device. It receives the entire rifle, allows for natural muzzle jump and takes the human factor out of the equation. Only thing I have to do is squeeze the trigger. We use this to prove both rifles and load data.

Once a load is found we prove it with 20 targets, 5 rounds each. Anything over an inch at 100 yards disqualifies the load, and flyers are not allowed. Once a load is proven, it's entered into the log book for that particular rifle. Any and all projectiles sent down range are chrono'd and the data entered into the same log book.

The scope on that zfk55 is an IOR Valdada fixed 10 power. The typical scopes for k31's used here for load data development is the Leupold Mark 4 or the Premier Heritage 15x. We use these scopes so that we don't have to even think about a scope variable in the equation.
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Old July 4, 2014, 01:25 PM   #23
tahunua001
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And ridiculously overpriced. You can get a far better rifle for less money(K-31 for example). I was considering getting one until I saw the price and I learned about the K-31.
that is a highly subjective matter. the K31, albeit a very fine battle rifle has no historical value as a weapon that won or lost a war, therefore the Springfields have more collectors value.

K31s for the most part had beech stocks with very few having walnut. walnut is a sturdier wood and guns with walnut stocks have better resale value. American service rifles from 1903 on all used walnut stocks all the way up to the M16.

K31s are a relatively recent addition to the military surplus world. Springfields were sold by the millions in the 50s and 60s for as little as $10, leaving very few available in recent years leading to a market rarity. many countless thousands were permenantly modified, destroying their collectibility, leaving fewer in a condition that commands a decent price. most springfields for sale are all coming from private collections rather than from large warehouses.

in the case of the 1903A4, only an estimated 30,000 were ever made making them extremely rare in comparison to the K31.

market values comes down to three things.
collectibility
quality
rarity

springfields are all extremely high quality, even the A3 which replaced certain milled parts for stamped parts, are becoming quite rare and as we live in the nation that won 2 wars while using them, they are quite collectable. the prices reflect those things. K31s are saturating the market right now, are in good condition only because they never saw combat conditions, and have little collectability. they are an extremely complicated design and have some design flaws which can be slightly detrimental, although nothing so critical that civilians would have to worry about. in 10 years gp11 surplus ammo will likely be a distant memory and the K31 could cost as much as a springfield 1903 does today... in that case which is the better buy?

a simple, symbolic american piece with unlimited aftermarket and gunsmithing support for and a HUGE factory loaded ammunition market?
or
a rifle that most non-collectors couldn't identify, that few gunsmiths will touch, with little aftermarket support, and an obsolete cartridge with few manufacturers continuing to produce?

I'm not belittling the K31 and I own many rifles that are much worse off in all of the fields I listed, I am simply explaining that the springfield is expensive for a reason.
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Old July 4, 2014, 01:36 PM   #24
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Actually, all k31s were walnut between 1930 and 1941. Scarcity of walnut due to the war dictated the use of Beech until after the war.
You can find the walnut years, numbers produced and the Beech years here.
http://theswissriflesdotcommessagebo...before-posting.

Just scroll down to the Manufacture Dates. Might surprise you.
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Old July 4, 2014, 01:44 PM   #25
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TCB, tell me about your 57. What ammunition are you using? The 57 is fully capable of moa with a decent scope, and even with the diopter once you're used to it. Something's not right.
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