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Old June 10, 2014, 10:14 PM   #1
MEATSAW
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Case headspace issue

So I got a new toy in the hornady headspace comparator gadget. Decided it was time to start FL sizing correctly and bump the shoulder .001" to .002" back. Well I started measuring what I have been doing and came across something that doesn't make sense. I was zeroing the calipers on a fired case so my resized cases should be (-) negative.

My .308 was getting bumped back -.004": okay, fine a little adjustment and it'll be set.

My .223 was getting bumped back -.008": for an AR I'd like it to be -.003" so I need to tweak it a bit.

My .280 was measuring consistently +.004": how the heck are my sized cases larger than my fired cases? I measured several cases I had previously sized against ones I shot today. I have no idea how it's possible to get the shoulder moved forward but clearly I have a problem.

Any ideas?
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Old June 11, 2014, 02:35 AM   #2
tangolima
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Case headspace issue

The die resizes the brass body as well. When the brass is squeezed to a smaller diameter, the shoulder can go forward if there is room for it to do so. It is possible to have a longer brass after resizing. Just screw down the die 1/8 of a turn. You should see -0.005".

Another possibility is that the expander ball pulls the shoulder back up. To rule this out, try taking out the expander ball, size and remeasure.

-TL

Last edited by tangolima; June 11, 2014 at 02:45 AM.
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Old June 11, 2014, 05:05 AM   #3
Bart B.
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Use these labels on your dies to easily adjust them.

http://s860.photobucket.com/user/jep...ent-1.jpg.html

Print them on sticky back label paper and they'll work great.
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Old June 11, 2014, 09:47 AM   #4
F. Guffey
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Quote:
headspace comparator gadget


Quote:
My .280 was measuring consistently +.004": how the heck are my sized cases larger than my fired cases? I measured several cases I had previously sized against ones I shot today. I have no idea how it's possible to get the shoulder moved forward but clearly I have a problem.
And that is it? I have no clue what press you are using, I would have to assume you are familiar with the phenomena of the case whipping the press.
Meaning the case does not get stuffed into the die, this leaves a gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder, me? When the case whips the press I measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder with a feeler gage, some use light.

Reloading has not been fair to me, the amount of resistance to sizing from case to case is not the same, some cases require more effort because they have more resistance to sizing.

The misinformation started when someone made up the cute saying, fire form your cases, neck size them for the next 5 firings then start over by full length sizing, then there is that part where the case is not full grown until it has been fired 'X' number of times.. And that I find impossible, how can a reloader start over with a case that has been fired 6 times? And not of the reloaders making this stuff has a feeler gage and never check to see if the press won or the case won.

There are methods and techniques, I want to know if my press , die and shell holder has the ability to size the case back to minimum length, I want to know if it is necessary to return the case to minimum length by full length sizing.

Reloaders throw around the numbers of bump .001", "I bump my shoulders .002" etc." without explaining how. They size the case, remove it from the press then measure, after measuring they size the case again, remove the case and measure again and repeat this process until they obtain the magic number?

You can install the cut outs, then what? I do not assume the press, die and shell holder won, I verify, to verify measure the gap between the shell holder and die. Logic ask, why use the cut outs if the reloader is going to verify the gap, forget the cut out when converting degrees to thousands or degree of rotation? Go straight to the verifying tool, the feeler gage when making adjustments.

Then there is flex and deflection, the case has the ability to resist sizing, some more than other, that could lead to more flex and deflection. Reloaders go through the motion of sizing by assuming, not me, I have presses that flex, I have presses that came with a warranty/guarantee not to flex and or deviate, I am the only reloader that purchases the non flexing presses that has the ability to determiner fact and fiction, truth from nonsense.

In an effort to sort through problems a reloader was having I found he had screwed the die down 2 turns after contact with the shell holder. The gap between the bottom of the die and shell holder was .014", the press was an A2 RCBS.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; June 11, 2014 at 09:49 AM. Reason: trmobr t from ta
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Old June 11, 2014, 10:11 AM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEATSAW
My .280 was measuring consistently +.004": how the heck are my sized cases larger than my fired cases? I measured several cases I had previously sized against ones I shot today. I have no idea how it's possible to get the shoulder moved forward but clearly I have a problem.

Any ideas?
Is this with the die hard against the shellholder? As explained by Tangolima, the shoulder gets longer before it gets shorter. It has to, that brass has to go somewhere and the only place available is "up".

Once the case shoulder contacts the brass shoulder, it will "bump" the case shoulder shorter.

Mr Guffey's preceding 8 paragraphs of drivel notwithstanding, the process has been explained many times.

If you're getting +0.004, that tells you that the die needs to be at least 0.006 lower in the press. You can use feeler gauges to check the current gap and then use 0.006 less to set the new gap, or you can simply proceed with trial and error. 0.006 is roughly 6/70ths of a turn or just less than 1/10th or roughly 1/3rd of 1/4th. Contrary to the opinion of some, estimates and rough adjustments are fine. We're not going to the moon here, it's only ammunition.
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Old June 11, 2014, 10:28 AM   #6
MEATSAW
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Awesome Brian and tango, that's the information I was looking for. I now understand the mechanics of it. Sorry if I brought up a topic that is beat to death.

Guffey, I am using a Lee turret press. And feeler gauges are not perfect either. Whatever method you choose, be it measuring die rotation or using a feeler gauge both have error and both have operator error. If they both accomplish the same task if a person is better one way than the other I'd say its a case of the ends justify the means.

I will try this sans feeler gauge just because I don't like the term "feeler gauge" -- kinda creeps me out.
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Old June 11, 2014, 10:51 AM   #7
Brian Pfleuger
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Oh, one thing the feeler gauges are good for is to take up the slack between the case and the shellholder. If you can't get the sizing you need for whatever reason (it would mostly mean you had a very short chamber or a defective die) you can slide a gauge under the case in the shellholder so it it held tight as high as it can sit. There's usually at least 0.015 available there.
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Old June 11, 2014, 11:24 AM   #8
Jim243
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Quote:
estimates and rough adjustments are fine. We're not going to the moon here, it's only ammunition.
LOL, Brian you are starting to sound like me (LOL).

Post #2 explained it all.

That's why you trim your cases AFTER you full length resize and not BEFORE.

Jim
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Last edited by Jim243; June 11, 2014 at 11:44 AM.
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Old June 11, 2014, 02:17 PM   #9
Slamfire
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Quote:
My .308 was getting bumped back -.004": okay, fine a little adjustment and it'll be set.

My .223 was getting bumped back -.008": for an AR I'd like it to be -.003" so I need to tweak it a bit.
Where these rifles bolt guns or semi autos?
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Old June 11, 2014, 02:41 PM   #10
F. Guffey
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Quote:
I will try this sans feeler gauge just because I don't like the term "feeler gauge" -- kinda creeps me out.
No clue what 'sans' means,

Quote:
I don't like the term "feeler gauge" -- kinda creeps me out
If feeler gage creeps you out try thickness gage from Redding etc..

Then there are other terms that must be dribble like: Standard, transfer and verify, all three terms apply to the feeler gage.

F. Guffey
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Old June 11, 2014, 02:54 PM   #11
F. Guffey
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Another possibility is that the expander ball pulls the shoulder back up. To rule this out, try taking out the expander ball, size and remeasure.
More dribble, time and time again I have heard that one, and I always ask: "How is that possible? Then I always realize forcing some to think most always makes them mad and I alienate them.

Maybe not this time. I assure you the case will get longer from the mouth of the case to the case head if the the sizer plug is removed. I will assure you the case will get shorter if the sizing plug is not removed.

F. Guffey
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Old June 11, 2014, 05:12 PM   #12
tangolima
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From shoulder, not the mouth, to the head.

-TL
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Old June 11, 2014, 07:10 PM   #13
Jim243
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Quote:
No clue what 'sans' means,

Via or with.

Jim
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Old June 11, 2014, 07:18 PM   #14
Blindstitch
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Sans means Without.
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Old June 11, 2014, 09:44 PM   #15
F. Guffey
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Quote:
There's usually at least 0.015 available there
I am not the author of that dribble, The absolute maximum would the most, I said RCBS will allow .012", I then said the Lee allows the most, as much as .015". As we all know anyone that has ever used a feeler gage/thickens gage co compensate for a short chamber understands it is most common for a reloader to grind the bottom of the die and or grind the top of the shell holder common. I have an in-line/angle/butt grinder. When it comes to precision grinding dies and or shell holders I can do it. Still I prefer the feeler gage, the companion too9l to the press, for those that get freaked out for any reason there is the Redding catalog, they sell thickness gages.

So I was misquoted with the "There's usually at least".

Sans: Vie, or with or without?

Quote:
tangolima: From shoulder, not the mouth, to the head.
I have been informed by members of this forum the case does not have a length from the shoulder to the case head, it started when I said SAAMI "said" the case does not have head space.

Even then, a fired case gets longer when sized, if a reloader could figure a way to measure the case before the ram was lowered they could prove it. When the sizer plug is pulled through the neck of the case the case gets shorter.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; June 11, 2014 at 09:57 PM.
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Old June 13, 2014, 12:22 PM   #16
RC20
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Now the Butt Grinder thing has me creeped out!
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Old June 13, 2014, 06:58 PM   #17
stubbicatt
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To OP, perhaps the issue is your press? I too have the Classic Cast Turret press, and I have found that I get very uncertain results on bottleneck cases when trying to arrive at uniform shoulder setback. Perhaps a change to a Rock Chucker or the like will assist you some.

Too PMA make a lock ring that will help you in setting your dies for proper shoulder bump. Die Lock Ring PMA

Lastly, unless you anneal your cases each time, the best I have achieved in terms of consistent shoulder bump is +/- .001 from my target setting. There are inconsistencies in brass springback otherwise as the brass work hardens. Lube film thickness will also affect your results. I have found the Lee toothpaste lube when applied with an atomizer, and diluted about 6 to 1 with ISO alcohol gives the most consistent lube film, without sticking cases. Also, since some gets in the case neck, the expander ball doesn't drag the neck out of concentricity on many cases. Some do get out of line.

HTH.
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Old June 15, 2014, 01:16 PM   #18
F. Guffey
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Quote:
To OP, perhaps the issue is your press? I too have the Classic Cast Turret press, and I have found that I get very uncertain results on bottleneck cases when trying to arrive at uniform shoulder setback. Perhaps a change to a Rock Chucker or the like will assist you some.
Quote:
I get very uncertain results on bottleneck cases when trying to arrive at uniform shoulder setback.
I sort cases, I keep cases together, even after tumbling a hundred+ cases I have enough different head stamps sorted in groups of 20, 50, 60 or 100 the cases I am sizing have the same amount of abuse. Sorting cases is another way to reduce the mortal combat a reloader gets into when...reloading.

I did not spend a lot of time looking at 'it'. I can not master bumping, I have bump presses, I can adjust a press to bump if It was designed to bump but when the shoulder portion of the die contacts the shoulder of the case the body of the case supports the case body and the neck sizing portion of the die has already finished sizing the neck. The best I can od is controll the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head, again, I can not do that without case body support.

F. Guffey

Last edited by F. Guffey; June 15, 2014 at 01:22 PM.
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