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Old May 29, 2014, 09:04 AM   #1
Deerhunter
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Need some AK-47 help

Been looking at adding an AK to my collection. I have it narrowed down to 2 different ones. I definitely want an under folder.

I am looking at these two

Yugo M70 ABM Milled AK47 Under folder
and the
Yugo Zastava N-PAP Under folder

How much difference is there? Which one would you go with and why? The M70 is about $130 more then the N-PAP.

I am hoping to keep the price around $700. If there is another model I should be looking at feel free to throw it out there.

Thanks for any help/advice you all can provide
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Old May 29, 2014, 09:47 AM   #2
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I am wiling to got up to about $850 for a good AK.

Also rethinking the whole under folder thing. Not sure if that is really the direction I should go or not.

Thanks
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Old May 29, 2014, 01:38 PM   #3
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I don't think I'd go with an underfolder as a first AK. A fixed or collapsible stock is way more comfortable.

Also, I don't think the N-PAP has chrome lining does it? I'm not sure on the M70. I would definitely want a chrome lined one if I could get it.
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Old May 29, 2014, 02:16 PM   #4
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I would go with the PAP underfolder with a hammerforged barrel. The PAP underfolder also has a year warranty. No Yugo/Serb AK's had chromed barrels.
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Old May 29, 2014, 03:49 PM   #5
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Being a completely new Zastava-made rifle (as opposed to a US-made rifle using a parts kit), the NPAP is the better choice IMHO.
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Old May 30, 2014, 04:29 AM   #6
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There's no reason to get a chrome lined barrel since corrosive surplus isn't really available anymore in that caliber. The reason the Yugoslavians didn't chrome line their barrels is that the Eastern Bloc had very poor plating techniques that resulted in inconsistent barrel diameters. Chrome isn't rust proof its just slower to rust. So even with a chrome lined barrel your gas port can rust, end of the piston, bolt face, etc. Cleaning isn't optional anyways and it's always a good idea to at least oil up everything with a few sprays of rem oil or whatever you use. AK's get hot and will cook off all the oil after a mag or 2. I personally like the unfolders.
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Old May 30, 2014, 05:16 AM   #7
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I've never had any problem adjusting to the underfolders either. Getting a cheek-weld is slightly uncomfortable, perhaps, but not enough to ever be a hindrance. Having a rifle that is beyond simple to work on, and stows away in such a small package is certainly appealing to me. I picked up one of the Yugo M70AB2 models when they first came out several years back and it has been flawless. Digests any ammo you can scrounge up and is much more accurate than what I had always read about AK's in general. I am very satisfied with mine and have never regretted the purchase.
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Old May 30, 2014, 06:57 AM   #8
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Thanks for the replies


I have now thrown the Russian AK47 CAK-132 into the mix. As much as I want an under folder I am thinking a full stock might be a better choice for my first AK. Then again....I might just have to pick up both
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Old May 30, 2014, 08:09 AM   #9
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Quote:
CAK-132
Atlantic's CAK-132 is a converted Saiga rifle. That's a nice rifle in my opinion (with a cold hammer-forged chrome-lined barrel).
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Old May 30, 2014, 09:19 AM   #10
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Fishbed

That is the one I am looking at.
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Old June 2, 2014, 07:09 AM   #11
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In my very humble opinion:

There is no reason to have an AK if it isn't an underfolder. Whatever AK you get, it should have a folding stock, preferably an underfolder. That's what makes it a handy, compact rifle. The fixed stocks (I've had one of those also) are generally too short and uncomfortable and it completely defeats the purpose of having an AK. Also, underfolders will be the first to be banned, and then you'll be sorry you don't have one.

Your next concern in picking an AK should be two-fold: chrome-lined barrel and at least 1.5mm receiver, if stamped.

Once you've decided that you want these features, pick the best build - narrow it down and then do your research.
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Old June 2, 2014, 06:36 PM   #12
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Disagree with everything above...but it all boils down to what you're going to do with it. I use mine mainly at the ranch, at night, on short to mid range pigs. What you want to use yours for will determine what features are important to you.
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Old June 2, 2014, 07:55 PM   #13
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I do not like the feel of the underfolder and with cold weather gear on they snag and hang when going from low ready to full aim posisition . The side folders are the better for me . Even the wire side folder like the AMD65 . Most AK,S feel short for me but after handeling them a while I adjust .
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Old June 2, 2014, 08:45 PM   #14
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Echo 93 makes a nice kydex cheek piece for the AK folders. These snap in between the stock rails. Gives you even more of a cheek weld.

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Old June 2, 2014, 09:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
There is no reason to have an AK if it isn't an underfolder. Whatever AK you get, it should have a folding stock, preferably an underfolder. That's what makes it a handy, compact rifle. The fixed stocks (I've had one of those also) are generally too short and uncomfortable and it completely defeats the purpose of having an AK. Also, underfolders will be the first to be banned, and then you'll be sorry you don't have one.

Your next concern in picking an AK should be two-fold: chrome-lined barrel and at least 1.5mm receiver, if stamped.
I disagree with literally every statement here.

Fixed-stock AKs provide better stability, cheek weld and simplicity. Honestly the underfolder has pretty much the worst ergonomics of all AK folding stock types, and is the slowest to bring into action. If you can find an folding comblock polymer stock-equipped rifle, that is the best of of both worlds, but rifles with them tend to be pricy.

If you are shouldering an AK properly (with a squared-up stance and the butt slightly inboard of your strong shoulder), the "Warsaw" stock length is the correct length. Since the "purpose of an AK" is to function as a simple, functional and durable combat rifle, it's impossible to agree that the simple, functional, and durable Warsaw-length fixed stock "completely defeats the purpose of having an AK."

I agree that a quality chrome-lined barrel (preferably a former Comblock cold-hammer-forged chrome-lined barrel) is a great feature to have (and which I personally prefer on my AKs), the Yugoslavians proved that it is possible to build a high-quality and durable AK barrel that is not chrome-lined.

The Russians have proven that the 1mm stamped receiver to be perfectly adequate for the AK-74 and AK-100-series service rifles. Frankly, heavier stamped receivers add nothing but weight, with few other benefits (reduced felt recoil is a benefit, but lets face it - the 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39m rounds are very light-recoiling to begin with), and the Russians have shown stamped receivers in general to have a longer service life than milled. AK receivers heavier than the 1mm receiver of the modern Russian service rifles are truly only needed on RPKs and such, which must be able to absorb sustained fully-automatic fire.


.

Last edited by Fishbed77; June 2, 2014 at 09:33 PM.
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Old June 3, 2014, 06:08 AM   #16
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Deerhunter, you might also consider a WASR 10/63 as well, i had my FFL order one from J&G last month for $499, it came with 7 Korean steel mags, however no bayo lug or flash hider on the rifle, but im happy with it thus far, just need to test fire it soon.
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Old June 3, 2014, 07:11 AM   #17
Deerhunter
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blfuller....that is a cool piece right there. Where can I pick one of those up?

I have made a decision. I already own 2 AR15s so I am going to just go ahead and pick up 2 AK-47s.

Going with the Yugo Zastava N-PAP Under folder and the Russian AK47 CAK-132.

Thanks for the info
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Old June 3, 2014, 08:02 AM   #18
Skans
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If you want ergonomics, then buy a Remington 700 action in your favorite caliber and mount it in a custom, bedded stock sized correctly for the individual. If it has to be a cheap semi-auto in 7.62 then buy a custom wood stock for an SKS and have it sized to fit you correctly with sculpted cheek weld.

If you want a semi-auto battle rifle, then buy a chinese M1a action and mount it in your stock of choice.

The Ak is intended to be a small full-auto, mid-power carbine/rifle. Ask yourself - do you really want an AK that hasn't been designed to handle full-auto mag dumps? If you don't want a robust AK that can be knocked around and can handle full-auto fire, then buy the 1mm AK-lites with cheap non-chrome barrels - I can understand going that rout if you need to supply 100 men with arms on a limited budget.

When you can no longer buy an AK underfolder, and get stuck with that straight stock AK, then you'll understand. How do I know this??? Because in 1988, right before the '89 import ban, the only AK that could be found (pre-internet) in a 100 mile radius, were 3 fixed stock Polytech stamped receiver AK's. Underfolders were long gone. Once the the Assault Weapon ban expired (enacted after the import ban), and good quality underfolders became available, a high quality polish 1.5mm underfolder with chrome barrel was the first post-sunset firearm I purchased!

Oh, and as for advantages of the underfolder? When folded, smaller, thinner, more robust and more concealable than most bullpups. Fits inside of a hiking backpack.

It's fine to disagree with me. Just remember I was looking at AK's since the early 1980's but waited until 1988 to buy one....and then waited until 2009 to buy another.

Last edited by Skans; June 3, 2014 at 08:10 AM.
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Old June 3, 2014, 08:42 AM   #19
blfuller
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Quote:
blfuller....that is a cool piece right there. Where can I pick one of those up?
Deerhunter,
You can get them RIGHT HERE. They are down at the lower left of this page.
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Old June 3, 2014, 10:03 AM   #20
Fishbed77
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Quote:
Ask yourself - do you really want an AK that hasn't been designed to handle full-auto mag dumps?
There is a big difference between a "full-auto mag dump" (that the modern 1mm Russian service rifles are obviously designed to handle), and sustained automatic fire, which is the purview of the RPK with its heavier receiver. If you are dumping mag after mag after mag after mag though a service rifle (regardless of receiver construction), you are probably using it wrong. Regardless, your barrel will likely give out (or handguards burn or melt) long before the receiver gives.

Quote:
If you don't want a robust AK that can be knocked around and can handle full-auto fire, then buy the 1mm AK-lites with cheap non-chrome barrels - I can understand going that rout if you need to supply 100 men with arms on a limited budget.
No one is advocating cheap (usually American-made) non-chromed AK barrels. I would avoid these at all costs, especially when reasonably-priced rifles with quality CHF chomed barrels (Russian Saigas, Bulgarian rifles, etc.) or quality CHF non-chromed barrels (Yugo O-PAPs and N-PAPs) are available.

Again, the Russian have proven that their properly heat-treated 1mm stamped receivers have the same functional durability as any other receiver in that class of rifle, and a service life that is longer than milled receivers specifically.

Quote:
When you can no longer buy an AK underfolder, and get stuck with that straight stock AK, then you'll understand. How do I know this??? Because in 1988, right before the '89 import ban, the only AK that could be found (pre-internet) in a 100 mile radius, were 3 fixed stock Polytech stamped receiver AK's. Underfolders were long gone.
So this has become a question of availability versus functionality? Regardless, I certainly wouldn't tell anyone NOT to buy an underfolder if they want one. Personally, I'd like to pick up another.

Quote:
Oh, and as for advantages of the underfolder? When folded, smaller, thinner, more robust and more concealable than most bullpups. Fits inside of a hiking backpack
I won't disagree than that underfolders are the most concealable, but it's safe to say conceal-ability was pretty far down the list of requirements when Mikhail Kalashnikov was designing his service rifle (actually, it's doubtful it was on the list at all). And that conceal-ability comes with plenty of trade-offs, which is not to say that underfolders don't have their place. But saying that not having an underfolder stock "completely defeats the purpose of having an AK" is simply not true.
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Old June 3, 2014, 12:47 PM   #21
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Norinco, Polytech, Zastava, and Valmet/Sako all use at least 1.5mm - 1.6mm steel for their stamped receivers on their AK variants. Apparently, this eliminates the need for the rate-reducer devices found in the trigger groups of thinner 1mm steel receivers of Warsaw-Pact AKM's.

... When the AKM was introduced, the bolt’s bounce characteristics were changed by the lighter sheet-metal receiver. As a consequence, to prevent firing out of battery, which can destroy both the rifle and the operator, a five-component mechanical drag device was installed in the trigger mechanism to delay the hammer’s fall until bolt bounce had settled down to a safe degree. This device, erroneously called a rate reducer by many self-styled authorities …

Look, I can buy a light-weight Hi-Point 9mm carbine if all I want is something that works ok for semi-auto fire. I am sure there are plenty of cheaply made guns that work ok for that purpose. 1.5 and 1.6mm receiver AK's with chrome lined barrels and decent parts are "full-auto" capable, except for some holes and some parts. 1mm receiver AK's are simply not as "full-auto" ready as the heavier ones. But, buy what you want. I'm sure there will be a plastic AK coming out soon - I bet those will be ever cheaper than the 1mm AK's.

The only thing the russians have proven is that they can make a cheap 1mm AK that Americans will buy. They have also proven that they can make cheap steel-cased ammo in all kinds of non 7.62 calibers that Americans will buy too! So, if a russian says its so, it must be true.

So, as Vladimir Putin has stated:

"I think the American people should express their preferences, and we'll accept their choice."

Last edited by Skans; June 3, 2014 at 12:54 PM.
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Old June 3, 2014, 01:13 PM   #22
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Current production Zastava n-paps have 1 mm receivers. Get your calipers out and measure yours. Mine does.

BTW, AKs can be used for many legitimate purposes other than going into a war zone, shooting up zombies, or preparing for the collapse of civilization. I use mine out in the sticks, and I don't need a bayonet, a chrome lined barrel, a folding stock... and, quite often, I only put a 10 rd. mag in it. The 1mm receiver is a plus also IMO.

Last edited by oldscot3; June 3, 2014 at 01:27 PM.
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Old June 3, 2014, 01:15 PM   #23
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Thanks again all and I hope people keep posting. I am enjoying reading it all.

First....not looking to fire or try to change the things to fire full auto. This is just to take out to the range and mess around with. I don't want a piece of junk cheap AK, but I also don't need to spend $1200+ on an Arsenal either.


Anyone know where I can find the thickness of the N-PAP and the Russian CAK-132? I see a couple people mentioned the thickness of the receiver in a couple posts. I can't seem to find that information on those two AKs.


Thanks again
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Old June 3, 2014, 01:28 PM   #24
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Look up one.
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Old June 3, 2014, 09:42 PM   #25
Fishbed77
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Quote:
Anyone know where I can find the thickness of the N-PAP and the Russian CAK-132? I see a couple people mentioned the thickness of the receiver in a couple posts. I can't seem to find that information on those two AKs.
Both have 1mm receivers.

The CAK-132 is a converted Saiga, which is built on the same assembly line (with most of the same parts, including the CHF chrome-lined barrel and 1mm receiver flats) as the current Russian AK-74M and AK-100-series military rifles. The N-PAP is made by Zastava in Serbia, who is known for making high-quality AKs as well.
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