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Old May 24, 2014, 08:53 PM   #1
Bezoar
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Times in training

training is something that is spoken of but it doesnt seem to be well followed. I mean in the actual range you use a handgun.

the old bullseye manual you see online, is considered "ok to learn grip and trigger control, and sight picture' but not much else. that 20 some yard range is tooo much for someone concerned in ccw shooting.

yet how? if deputy fife and sherriff taylor had to qualify at 25 yards every year to be allowed to be armed, then why is the big standard of today, a mere 15 yards?

all of the reviews only ever mention 7 or 15 yards to "see if a gun is accurate". i mean, if your kimber 2 that cost 1300 out the door is only good for 15 yards...... i think a rossi can do better for you at that range, 400 for the gun and the extra cash for ammuntion and range time.
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Old May 24, 2014, 09:26 PM   #2
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I would have to agree. Bullseye as a solid foundation makes sense. If you can't hit, you probably can't hit fast.
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Old May 24, 2014, 11:23 PM   #3
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You're (sort of) cross-pollinating your contexts.

The old bulls-eye methods have a context rooted primarily in dueling and hunting, not so much self-defense or current MIL/LEO tactics. Consider the unbelievably long par times for those types of competitions.

"Fife and Taylor" may have qualified with protocols including 25-yard fire ... but check your times there as well ... nothing difficult about those standards.

I'm not sure where the idea of 15 yard being "the big standard" comes from, but it' true that many agencies (including the FBI) are weighting their quals more heavily towards closer ranges and faster par times than in previous ages. There's a reason for that ... it' a far more realistic representation of what they are likely to encounter in the course of duty.

I don't read gun rags much these days, but I agree that it's a bit silly to test accuracy of the gun at 7-15 yards.
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Old May 25, 2014, 12:30 AM   #4
Bezoar
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well then heres a follow up to beat contextual issue.

if any normal fbi agent was expected to draw his revovler, dump all 6 shots DA into a human target, eject empties, reload and repeat. and do it for a time and a score. yes trying to get in the x and 9 ring as much as possible.
and at 25 yards even,

then why do current law enforcement college courses merely do a 8x12 target, and 5 minutes to empty out two fully loaded magazines?

is the "only go for 15 yards" the reason for so many myths that say, snub nose revolvers cant shoot more then 10-15 yards?

if no one practices for longer ranges, then are you really practicing with intent to become proficient?
with bullet drop charts, and an afternoon of practice to verify, you can get sighted in for 25 yards and know that a certain amount of holdover means youll be hitting coffee cans at 50yards
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Old May 25, 2014, 12:51 AM   #5
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezoar
...then why do current law enforcement college courses merely do a 8x12 target, and 5 minutes to empty out two fully loaded magazines?...
I don't know. But I also don't know that's the standard. It's not like any standard I've ever heard of.

Here, for example, is the Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) qualification course used in Colorado.

Here is a short POST qualification course used in Idaho.

Here is an index of standards used by a number of law enforcement agencies together with links to those standards.

So if we want to discuss law enforcement standards, or similar standards, we need to be sure we first can document what those standards are. Let's not make things up.
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Old May 25, 2014, 01:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezoar
then why do current law enforcement college courses merely do a 8x12 target, and 5 minutes to empty out two fully loaded magazines?
I noticed you specified college courses. Are you referring to criminal justice degree courses at an actual college, or are you referring to police academy training standards? Because if it is the former, I would hazard a guess that it's because it is exactly that: a college course, and all they are concerned with is basic proficiency.
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Old May 25, 2014, 08:12 AM   #7
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The Anchorage PD qualifies from 7 ft. to 25 yards, times respective to the distance.

How ever, in LE (not so much in civilian SD training) its a dis-service to officers not to require handgun training and qualifications to 50 yards.

The reason I give:

One of the most dangerous situations an officer faces is domestic violence calls.

In responding to such, safety dictates you park down the street and approach the scene on foot. If the bandit is waiting he may (and it happens) as soon as he sees the officer approaching, meaning you may have to return fire at distances beyond 25 yards.

And don't say "he has a patrol rifle". He might, but he doesn't normally carry the rifle or shotgun to all domestic disputes.

In civilian self defense situations, it would be difficult to clime 25-50 yards requires defensive shooting.

Having said that, distance training with you cc pistol/revolver certainly wont hurt you. Distance requires more concentration on fundamentals. Sight alignment, trigger control, etc. It certainly wont hurt you close up self defense shooting.

Yesterday, had a lady from my women's self defense class show up at our monthly bowling pin shoot with her Smith 642. She didn't win but she was competitive. Made me proud. I carry a 642, but I don't think I could have done as well as she did using my 642.

Do not discount any competition as a valuable training tool for self defense, including and especially bullseye.
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Old May 25, 2014, 08:33 AM   #8
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Quote:
In civilian self defense situations, it would be difficult to clime 25-50 yards requires defensive shooting.
You are at the mall with your teenage daughter. She went to visit the ladies' room a few minutes ago, while you agreed to meet her at a store on the other side of the food court. Then you hear screaming, chaos, and shots -- and you look up to see an armed attacker slaughtering people near the area where you last saw your daughter. You frantically look for your daughter, and spot her near the attacker. He's about to shoot her, and you are still more than 25 yards away....

OR

At church with your family, you are sitting watching your son's Sunday School class sing for the congregation (you are in the back of the auditorium) when ...

OR

You are at home, upstairs in your bedroom, when you hear your husband's car pull into the driveway. A moment later, you hear screams and a gunshot -- and you look out the window to see that one of two attackers has just shot your husband in the leg and is preparing to shoot him in the head...

OR

You are preparing to visit your grandmother in the nursing home. As you walk through the parking lot, you see a man with a rifle walking calmly toward the building -- shooting people as he goes. He is headed toward your grandmother's wing of the building, and clearly intends to kill everyone he encounters...


There's the case for ordinary citizens using pistols in absolutely justified defensive shooting at greater than bad-breath distances. If you have people you love and care about, you must be prepared to work at greater distances than you would ever need if you're the only person you really care about saving.

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Old May 25, 2014, 10:51 AM   #9
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The building that I work in (and might be a rampage setting) has a long hall that is 280 feet long. My office is at one end of the hall. Might I see the rampager at the other end?
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Old May 25, 2014, 04:01 PM   #10
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How well one shoots depends on their skill level and what they have for equipment.

Lots of people pack P3ATs and LCPs or what knot and thus 25 yard head shots, even for the most skilled, is kind of difficult.

Yes the far majority of SD is at close range and 15 yards is on the far side. But exceptions happen.

But folks, there is a big difference between qualifications and skill.

Most qualification courses just show you are competently safe with a gun and can hit a generous size target at a sort of reasonable distance.

So what to do?

Get as good as you can for the time and money you can spend. Then pray it's never needed.

BTW, I can do head shots at 25 yards with my Glock 26 and 640 2 inch Centennial .38.

But then I've made shooting my hobby for over 40 years, and competition shooting maybe 25 years worth. Few do that. Very few.

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Old May 25, 2014, 04:41 PM   #11
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Practice easy and never get better. One must push themselves with regards to distance. From the 2013 IRC .Far and Near Standards
Stage 12
START POSITION: Standing in shooting box with hands relaxed at sides. Alternate starting
position for String 1 is facing up range with hands above shoulders if you are not going prone.
STAGE PROCEDURE:
String 1 - At signal from Position A only,
engage T1-T6 with only 1 round each. [9
sec par time].
String 2 - At signal from Position B only,
engage T1-T6 with only 1 round each. [7
sec par time].
String 3 - At signal from Position C only,
engage T1-T6 with only 2 round each.
(Perform a mandatory reload after engaging
3 targets.) [10 sec par time].
String 4 - At signal from Position D only,
engage T1-T3 (the top targets) with only 2
rounds each strong hand only, perform a
mandatory reload, then engage T4-T6 (the
bottom three targets) with only two rounds
each weak hand only. [10 sec par time]
SCORING: Shots limited;
36 rounds max, 4 strings.
TARGETS: 6 NRA AP-1 targets.
SCORED HITS: Best 6 hits on paper.
START/STOP: Audible / Audible.
PENALTIES: Per the ICORE rulebook.
Foot faults, extra shots,
extra hits, procedurals,
and misses +5 seconds
per occurrence. Overtime
shots +10 seconds per
occurrence.

Here is the link to stage 12,http://www.icore.org/archive/2013/irc_stages/Stage12

The distances are 50 yards shooting position 1, 25yards position 2, 10 yards position 3 and 3 yards postion 4 for this course of fire and the link to all the stages from the IRC http://www.icore.org/archive/2013/ir...ch_program.pdf
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Old May 25, 2014, 05:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Practice easy and never get better. One must push themselves with regards to distance.
Couldn't have said it better. For most half day classes (think CCW courses), the max distance will likely be 7 yards... maybe 15. These classes aren't really meant to teach marksmanship, though. They're designed to teach you the laws regarding deadly force and to make sure you can draw and fire a gun safely and (mostly) competently. Competence is subjective. I learned how to shoot in a bullseye manner. It taught me alot of the basic fundamentals that you need to master before you can start doing failure to stop drills (2 chest 1 head) with any amount of speed.

For me... I don't practice much further than 25 or 30 yards but a ton of my practice is at that distance. There are two ways to test your skill... add distance or increase speed. I focus on the latter more in training, but I don't sandbag by doing "kinda fast" failure to stop drills at 5 yards. I'm doing them with some speed at 15 and 20 yards. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. You crawl, walk, and then run. We all (I hope) know this. I do think alot of shooters, however, learn to crawl, get competent at walking, but never try to run. There's a lot of value to practicing at 25+ yards, along with shooting while moving, doing remmedial action drills, shooting two targets limited engagement time (keep cutting the time down until you're not making hits every time), etc.

Last edited by 5whiskey; May 25, 2014 at 10:04 PM.
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Old May 25, 2014, 07:31 PM   #13
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PAX is correct in that there are cases where people may have the requirement for distance shooting with their hand gun.

The problem is few practice shooting at distance with a hand gun, that includes LE officers.

Unless you can hit a head size target at 50 yards you could be as much or more of a hazard then the bandit.

That's why I laugh at people who condemn Bullseye shooters.
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Old May 30, 2014, 09:09 PM   #14
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I can't think of anybody (at least anybody serious) who condemns accurate shooting.

Although you probably won't have all day to be accurate, either, no?
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Old May 30, 2014, 11:59 PM   #15
Bezoar
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a new question to screw with you..

why is it that "accurate shooting at range and staying in the x ring" is ok, only if you can shoot it in mere seconds.

while staying on a b27 target at 5 yards and pumping 20 rounds into the entire target in 10 seconds is really good and the "ideal"?
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Old May 31, 2014, 12:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezoar
...while staying on a b27 target at 5 yards and pumping 20 rounds into the entire target in 10 seconds is really good and the "ideal"?
Who says it is? Sounds like pretty lousy shooting.
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Last edited by Frank Ettin; May 31, 2014 at 09:49 AM. Reason: correct typo
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Old May 31, 2014, 06:46 AM   #17
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That's what I was thinking, too.

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Old May 31, 2014, 04:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezoar
while staying on a b27 target at 5 yards and pumping 20 rounds into the entire target in 10 seconds is really good and the "ideal"?
As they say on Wikipedia, {citation needed}.

I don't know of anybody who'd advocate such miserable performance as an "ideal".
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Old May 31, 2014, 07:33 PM   #19
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The TX DPS moved to the B-27 for the CHL test supposedly because too many folks were missing the bottle shape of the original target. So I guess the B-27 is an 'ideal' standard.

Pumping out an entire mag is fun though.

We had a moving trolley pulling an IDPA target towards us. While you engaged it at a distance - as it was the last target on the last stage - it was fun to just hose it as it continued to approach. Might be a zombie. Since you had about 5 rounds left in the mag if you engaged the other targets - why not?

Not like it was 22 LR.
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Old June 1, 2014, 06:17 PM   #20
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I know for our department our max range is 15 yards with the hand gun. I think in the police academy our max range was about 15 yards as well. I think what they are trying to do is find a range that most shootings occur within. We spend half the time in the 7 yard and under range. We also use a silhouette target. I would also think that if you took a 75 yard shot at someone with a hand gun, you might have some legality issues about your ability to retreat in some circumstances.
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Old June 1, 2014, 07:11 PM   #21
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Here's the story of a young man who took a 71-yard shot with a handgun. And survived. And was widely hailed as the hero he was.

http://castroller.com/podcasts/ThePr...odcast/2930466

It will take 53 minutes of your time to hear the whole tale. Worth every second!

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Old June 1, 2014, 07:41 PM   #22
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Law Enforcement qualification distances have indeed shortened over three decades. The objective was to qualify more people easier and cheaper. Unfortunately, we have succeeded.

The trend has also been toward pass/fail as opposed to actually point-scoring targets. The objective was to avoid 'scores' being used in a civil litigation. Of course the Plaintiff can still subpoena everyone who was on the range with Officer MaGoo and depose them as to his shooing ability during range exercises. Subjective opinion replaces a recorded score. Big win for us, huh?

Finally, there is the Coin-Op Academy factor. Their objective is to take money on one end of the building and send folks with certificates out the other. Don't expect them to produce any world class pistol shots and you won't be disappointed.
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Old June 1, 2014, 07:56 PM   #23
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Finally, there is the Coin-Op Academy factor. Their objective is to take money on one end of the building and send folks with certificates out the other. Don't expect them to produce any world class pistol shots and you won't be disappointed.
And that is the truth!

That's why I like to shoot outside of work. We only shoot once a year for quals. They do score them though. But its not going to turn you into a good shot unless you practice on your own.
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Old June 1, 2014, 09:53 PM   #24
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"Reduced training time by 50%" can sound like a good thing on a performance report, at least to some people.
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Old June 1, 2014, 10:10 PM   #25
Bezoar
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only requiring a single 20 dollar box of 50 round 9mm per year saves money.

but when your officers are on the beet and use 80 rounds of 1.25 premium ammo to hit a crack dealer twice in the leg.....
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