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Old May 15, 2014, 02:12 AM   #1
huntinaz
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Remorse



My wife, helping me grind:


It's come up lately, it comes up frequently, I was taught by my dad that it is "sad" to take a life. While I don't revel in the death of an animal, I have come to feel no remorse. And why should I? That's my question and the question posed by this thread. For those of you who feel bad, why?

Some background; I used to feel bad. My dad always told me "it's sad" to take a life. Although now when I talk to him, I gather he has no sadness for the deed.

My question is: why should I feel bad, considering;

1. Deer are a prey animal. Their existence in the food chain is to be eaten. They are always watching for what's coming. That is everyday life for the prey and the predator. I eat meat, therefor I'm a predator.

2. I had a great hunt. I camped away from civilization. I spent time with a good friend from school that I see maybe once a year. I spent time with my little brother, who I never get to see.

3. I set out to accomplish a goal, and I did.

4. It was a nice buck, 101" gross which is pretty good for a coues buck.

5. I butchered him myself, I shot him in November 2013 and he's been completely eaten by me, my wife and my daughters by May 2014.

I ask again; what do I have to feel bad about? Why should I feel remorse for this? I regret nothing about what I did, and I'm thankful for it having happened. And that's why, in the picture, I have a big grin on my face and am 100% happy. I loved everything about it. Who thinks I'm a psychopath?
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Old May 15, 2014, 04:11 AM   #2
NWPilgrim
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Never understood that either. Dad hunted for food. No happy dance or sadness when successful. Sure he was happy but didn't go overboard with it. I grew with the idea if you hunt ethically then it is better than buying beef at the market.

Bring home meat = happy

Don't bring home meat but tracked and slogged through the woods all week = slightly less happy
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Old May 15, 2014, 05:08 AM   #3
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The only remorse I have is my fault. It is my duty to provide a clean, quick, kill and make sure the animal doesn't suffer. Once it didn't work out the way I intended while bow hunting and I felt bad. But that only gave me more reason to practice harder and to know my limits.

The last deer I shot wasn't as big as I wanted it to be but it still tasted great last night. Shot through the heart with a 114 year old 30-40 Krag that I reload for.
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Old May 15, 2014, 05:15 AM   #4
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A couple of things:

If you went to the supermarket and picked u some skinless boneless chicken breasts...well,its easy,comfortable,and far removed from the fact that part of the price per pound is hiring the killing ,gutting,skinning,etc done.
There is something honest about doing it yourself.It has to do with being aware of life.

And,something I read in a Robert Ruark book.There are no "passed away peacefully of natural causes" deaths in the wild.He was writing about safari hunting,which is different than venison hunting,but he makes an interesting point
A lion gets a little old,hyenas eat him alive.A deer will be taken by a mountain lion,or it will starve,or get stuck in snowdrifts with barbed wire inside,etc,but it won't die like most of us do,just getting old.

That buck went out on a Good Day to Die.

For myself,I hope I maintain a reverent respect for Life....but that does not mean I can't smile or enjoy the hunt.
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Old May 15, 2014, 07:37 AM   #5
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Only remorse I feel is if I shoot one that is too small. I've learned not to do that anymore.
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Old May 15, 2014, 08:08 AM   #6
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Meh, try trapping for a season. Rubs the remorsefulness right out of you
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Old May 15, 2014, 09:19 AM   #7
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Not trying to be funny or anything, but there was a time that I did feel some sadness over shooting deer. That feeling came to me after maybe 20 years of deer hunting and stuck with me for a while. Then it passed. I don't know what brought it on and I don't know why it passed from me.

These days I feel absolute feral joy at blasting a coyote and feel just about that good when pig shooting. As for the deer, I'll put one in the freezer per season nowadays. I'm not sure where I am on shooting the big bucks. Did it all my life, but now I'm on my own place. I see the big 10 point from time to time, and maybe he's a 12 by now. I know that he's mature, and yet I just have not shot him. He's good for the breeding pool and I know he won't taste that good.
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Old May 15, 2014, 09:34 AM   #8
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No remorse from ethically hunting at all. Just deliciousness.

The only remorse should be from these so-called "hunters" who freely admit that they spray and pray on feral pigs, in a clearly and highly unethical manner.... They learned from Ted Nugent, in the helicopter.

They fail to understand that the ethics of hunting a mammal have ZERO to do with the nuisance level of the critter in question, and everything to do with the intelligence level and ability to feel pain of the critter in question.

Take pride in one-shot, one-quick-kill; else you're not a hunter - just a lousy excuse for one.
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Old May 15, 2014, 09:50 AM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
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As I said in another thread, I don't understand the "sadness" at killing an animal.

There are only two possible outcomes to going hunting.

One, failure to kill an animal and, two, killing an animal.

What sort of person would willfully engage in an activity that has only failure or sadness as possible outcomes? You'd have to be a sadist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlicensed Dremel
...everything to do with the intelligence level and ability to feel pain of the critter in question.
You'd better study up on how smart mice and many insects are then. Bees even have a language of sorts. Many insects exhibit incredible intelligence.

The Walt Disneyification of animals plays right into the hands of the anti-hunters. Welcome to the slippery slope. Next stop... down...
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Old May 15, 2014, 09:54 AM   #10
huntinaz
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Quote:
It has to do with being aware of life.
I listed a few quick reasons to be happy, but this is a more important theme than the rest. It's also the reason I've come to not feel bad. In my opinion, remorse or empathy for the animal doesn't come into play naturally except in the modern human who is removed from how things have always been in nature.

Quote:
A lion gets a little old,hyenas eat him alive.A deer will be taken by a mountain lion,or it will starve,or get stuck in snowdrifts with barbed wire inside,etc,but it won't die like most of us do,just getting old.
And to connect some more dots, that deer I shot above and every other deer in the forest is going to get eaten. That's the ultimate fate of the deer; it is food. Very, very rarely to they keel over from old age. And they still get eaten.

They get in car accidents too, same end result.


Quote:
Not trying to be funny or anything, but there was a time that I did feel some sadness over shooting deer. That feeling came to me after maybe 20 years of deer hunting and stuck with me for a while. Then it passed. I don't know what brought it on and I don't know why it passed from me.
I felt bad for years, thought I was supposed to. That brought on a series of questions and after I'd answered them all for myself, the sadness disappeared. I know that's different from the situational sadness you related.

Quote:
Meh, try trapping for a season. Rubs the remorsefulness right out of you
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Old May 15, 2014, 09:54 AM   #11
buck460XVR
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Any body watch the show "Kodiak" last night? What did they do when they finally put a big Bruin down? They showed respect and thanked the animal for giving it's life, while remembering the fact that only moments before the animal was alive. It was not remorse, but a a solemn moment. With every successful hunt there is joy, as there should be, either because of the challenge of the hunt, the trophy taken or the meat we will enjoy. But for me, with every passing year and every additional animal, watching the life disappear from the eyes or the chest heave with it's last breath, of an animal that I admired just moments before, I get less and less of a thrill. Not because of guilt or remorse, but of indifference. I enjoy the meat, I enjoy the challenge of the hunt and I know that in order to hunt successfully, I generally need to kill. Maybe why I pass up more animals today that I did in my youth.
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Old May 15, 2014, 10:06 AM   #12
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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So long as you have need for its meat or pelt. There's absulity no reason to feel guilty. (Disturbing human behavior) is when a Life is taken for some others amusement and no other reasonable reason exists at that moment in time.
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Old May 15, 2014, 10:09 AM   #13
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buck460XVR
thanked the animal for giving it's life,
I've always thought this was some sort of invalid coping mechanism.

First, I've never seen or heard of any animal "giving" it's life. They run, hide, fight to the very end. I can't imagine an animal "giving" it's life. It's not a willful gesture. If that bear is willing to "give" it's life, we very well ought to just walk right up and ask.

Second, it giving it's life and us giving it thanks imply sentience. A consciousness would be required and not just a consciousness, a willful intellect capable of making rationale choices. Why would we "thank" something that has no capacity to give willfully or to receive thanks for so doing?
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Old May 15, 2014, 10:27 AM   #14
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We are hunters !!!

Some of us, choose to get close and personal, to what we eat. We plant gardens and hunt/trap animals, Ethically. .....

You can't get much closer than your wife at that grinder and you on the rack. Just as valid as canning tomatoes or you on the end of a hoe. ....

I teach Ethics, during our Hunter Safety classes and often remind students the importance of developing and ethical Hunting-Code !!. ....

Thanks and;
Be Safe !!!
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Old May 15, 2014, 10:29 AM   #15
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I do not hunt. I have no fondness for the taste of wild game.

My late father would kill a deer almost every year, so I do have something to base my taste on.

It was the custom where we lived that if a hunter killed a deer they would tie it across the fender and hood of their car and then take the longest route through town to get home. My Dad carry an old canvas tarp to line the trunk of his car with and put the deer in there. I asked him once why he did that rather than showing off his kill. He said it was because he hunted for the meat and the companionship of his hunting partners. Not to show off to the town.

I live on 10 acres in the middle of some prime deer habitat. Last fall a new neighbor knocked on my door to ask if he would be able to cross onto my land if necessary while hunting. I gave him permission but warned him that he would stumble across at least one or two stands down in the bottom. People have been hunting that area since Eisenhower was a corporal and it would be nigh unto impossible to stop them.

So this non hunter says, "Hunt in good conscience."
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Old May 15, 2014, 10:32 AM   #16
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by huntinaz: In my opinion, remorse or empathy for the animal doesn't come into play naturally except in the modern human who is removed from how things have always been in nature.
Quote:
Originally posted by [b]Brian Pfleuger

I've always thought this was some sort of invalid coping mechanism.

First, I've never seen or heard of any animal "giving" it's life. They run, hide, fight to the very end. I can't imagine an animal "giving" it's life. It's not a willful gesture. If that bear is willing to "give" it's life, we very well ought to just walk right up and ask.

Second, it giving it's life and us giving it thanks imply sentience. A consciousness would be required and not just a consciousness, a willful intellect capable of making rationale choices. Why would we "thank" something that has no capacity to give willfully or to receive thanks for so doing?
Giving an animal respect and thanks after the kill is not something "new" created by modern hunters. Hunters since the beginning of time have worshiped the animals they hunted and paid them great respect before, during and after the hunt, even tho killing that animal meant food for them and their family, not just another set of horns on the wall. It is still common with the Indigenous Peoples in all parts of the world. I see it no different than saying grace over the food set in front of us when we sit down to eat.

Respect of one's quarry is what drive good hunting ethics. Thanking the Lord for giving us the animal and the opportunity to hunt the animal is respecting his creation. Criticizing the way other folks show their respect to their quarry is no different that criticizing the gun they use or the tactics they employ. It could be said that claiming that animals have no consciousness or intellect and they are just here on earth for us to kill is also "some sort of invalid coping mechanism" so folks can justify why they enjoy the kill. Kinda like inferring that those that show an animal respect not only in life, but in it's death, are not quite as manly as they should be.
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Old May 15, 2014, 10:47 AM   #17
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Quote:
Giving an animal respect and thanks after the kill is not something "new" created by modern hunters. Hunters since the beginning of time have worshiped the animals they hunted
Quote:
Thanking the Lord for giving us the animal
Quote:
I see it no different than saying grace over the food set in front of us when we sit down to eat.
One (or possibly both if you want to be "open" minded) of those beliefs is false. They certainly can't both be valid and they certainly are different.

Quote:
Kinda like inferring that those that show an animal respect not only in life, but in it's death, are not quite as manly as they should be.
"Respect" is different from essentially praying to the animal or "thanking it" for giving something that it did not willfully give.

It would be like if two kids are on the playground and one had a toy that the other wanted. The one kid fought and kicked and beat the other until he got the toy, then got on the ground next to the other kid and kindly thanked him for "giving" the toy.

How silly would that be? At least the kid has the capability of willfully giving the toy even if he didn't. The animal has neither the capacity to choose to give nor did it actually give. It also has no capacity to receive thanks. You might as well thank a block of wood for "giving" you heat when you burn it.
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Old May 15, 2014, 11:04 AM   #18
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Pfleuger:
Quote:
Giving an animal respect and thanks after the kill is not something "new" created by modern hunters. Hunters since the beginning of time have worshiped the animals they hunted
Quote:
Thanking the Lord for giving us the animal
Quote:
I see it no different than saying grace over the food set in front of us when we sit down to eat.
One (or possibly both if you want to be "open" minded) of those beliefs is false. They certainly can't both be valid and they certainly are different.
Tell me which one of those statements is false if you can.

People have worshiped the animals they have hunted for years. Native Americans had whole ceremonies attributed to it. I believe the "sacred cow" is proof that animal worship still exists. Same with the giving of thanks to the animal. I did not say I worshiped animals, only that I gave them respect after death and thanked the lord for providing me with the opportunity. Again in my opinion, no different giving thanks is the woods than at the table when it could very well be the same animal in front of me. How can that be false?

I wonder how many animals between us we have killed Brian. I know not of your success over the years, but I do know that I have been fortunate. I also know that I have gotten to the point in my hunting career where my priorities have changed. I get more thrill outta watching my boys get something tha I do by taking an animal myself. I get more of a thrill from letting that shooter buck or Tom walk than I do from draggin' it out. Hunting is a necessity, I understand that, and I also understand the reason most folks hunt and it isn't outta necessity. Life is precious and a complicated work of art by our creator. If I wish to thank him for letting me enjoy a piece of his art, why should it be an issue to you?
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Old May 15, 2014, 11:15 AM   #19
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Quote:
Tell me which one of those statements is false if you can.
I'd be happy to via PM, if you'd like, but it's not really a topic for the forum.

The point is, they're not both right. If the creation (or material things of some sort) are to be worshiped, the creator is not. If the Creator is worshiped, He would be unhappy of the creation being worshiped.

Quote:
I wonder how many animals between us we have killed Brian. I know not of your success over the years, but I do know that I have been fortunate. I also know that I have gotten to the point in my hunting career where my priorities have changed. I get more thrill outta watching my boys get something tha I do by taking an animal myself. I get more of a thrill from letting that shooter buck or Tom walk than I do from draggin' it out.
I've killed my share. I no longer kill every animal that I have a tag for. Some I let walk, some I don't. Depends on the mood. Trophy bucks are *literally* once in a lifetime in these parts. I wouldn't let one walk. I'd be happier yet if my son could get one... but he's only 8 so we've got a few years.

Quote:
If I wish to thank him for letting me enjoy a piece of his art, why should it be an issue to you?
I have no issue with that whatsoever. (My sig line should give you a hint about what I believe.)
Giving the Creator thanks is different than thanking an animal for "giving" it's life, which the animal did not and can not do, as I explained.
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Old May 15, 2014, 11:15 AM   #20
Art Eatman
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A deer tied on a fender? People have been showing off their trophies for thousands of years. Normal behavior. A guy wins a shooting competition, he gets a trophy for his gun room. So? Your high school or college diploma is a trophy.

Besides, hanging Bambi on a fender keeps deer ticks and blood off the carpet.
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Old May 15, 2014, 11:29 AM   #21
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REMORSE !!!

last deer i took droped on the spot with but a 120 grain bullet

i would feel more remorse for the animals who supply our stores.
unlike deer they dont spend there lives running free,they live in prisons called cattle ranches and are then sent to slaughter houses where its a known fact these cows exibit profound fear.

the way pigs are raised,almost cruelty.

i am not trying to put down farmers and ranchers because they raise animals the only way you can and my mother inlaws boyfriend raises cows and pigs on a small farm in new hamshire.if cows ran free what cow would voluntarlaly check in to a slaughter house.and i know the way pigs and veal are raised is getting more humane.


the point is that hunting is far far far less cruel than the super market and dont forget predetors as well.a deer would rather a clean fast rifle kill than death by coyote,cougar,wolf,bobcat,lynx or bear
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Old May 15, 2014, 11:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by huntinaz:
In my opinion, remorse or empathy for the animal doesn't come into play naturally except in the modern human who is removed from how things have always been in nature.

Originally posted by Buck460XVR:Giving an animal respect and thanks after the kill is not something "new" created by modern hunters. Hunters since the beginning of time have worshiped the animals they hunted and paid them great respect before, during and after the hunt, even tho killing that animal meant food for them and their family, not just another set of horns on the wall. It is still common with the Indigenous Peoples in all parts of the world.
To clarify, my statement was about remorse, sympathy and empathy for the animal. I was not commenting on the thanks or appreciation or ritual expressed by humans since forever at the notion of getting and having meat to eat. Worrying about what the prey think about the deal is what I feel is quite modern.
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Last edited by huntinaz; May 15, 2014 at 12:16 PM.
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Old May 15, 2014, 12:04 PM   #23
huntinaz
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Quote:
People have worshiped the animals they have hunted for years. Native Americans had whole ceremonies attributed to it. I believe the "sacred cow" is proof that animal worship still exists.
Back to animal worship, I'm not debating the "respect" of the Native American but it's not exactly the white Christian's idea either, then or now. Common practice, as I understand it, was for men of various ages to mount a horse, find a herd of buffalo, shoot them full of arrows and chase them around until they died, all the while whooping and hollering and having a good time. Then the women would come and butcher and preserve the meat while the men started celebrating by singing and dancing and eating and storytelling of the event. They'd make weapons and tools out of the bones. They'd paint the scenes on stuff to remember it. They would name themselves after hunting sometimes (antelope woman, two elk etc). When the hunting party was for humans, they'd take scalps. Trophy taking was very much a part of their culture.

My point is that while they "respected" the fact that they were completely dependent on the buffalo for food and shelter (tipis/clothers), they also ejoyed the hell out of killing them and they whooped and hollered when they were successful. They sure as hell weren't sorry for it. Remorse was not at all one of their sentiments.

Back to my example, I was with my brother when I shot that buck. It's the biggest either of us have killed. We did some laughing, hollering, atta boys. You can see I'm smiling in the pictures we took. I should get the mount back end of this week. It's really not all that disimilar in priciple to what the plains indians were doing 200 years ago, no?

Well guess what? White Christians didn't like it back then either. They watched that melee I just described and thought it was a pretty "savage" bunch. They weren't exactly viewed or treated as equals.



***Notice also that modern ethics had no part in it. Hobbling an animal and running/bleeding it to death are not pretty. They didn't silently sneak up and shoot a perfectly placed arrow thru the vitals and wait a half hour for it to die peacefully. They mounted up and ran the sumbitch to death after they got some arrows in it. They were concerned about their bellies, their kids and wives bellies, their tribe eating a meal. Their actions suggest what the animal was "feeling" did not enter into their thinking. Enter Walt Disney.
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Old May 15, 2014, 12:22 PM   #24
Buzzcook
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It's the whole circle of life thing. We recognize our own mortality in the life and death of the game we take.

A little introspection now and then is a good thing.
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Old May 15, 2014, 12:31 PM   #25
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Almost

Quote:
When the hunting party was for humans, they'd take scalps.
They did not do this, until taught it by the white settlers.

Yes they whooped and hollered a bit, but they did help. Also, horses did not exist here until the Spanish brought them. So much of what was stated here, was learned by the immigrants to the Americas. The Aztecs for sure had extreme brutality towards others, but the smaller tribes through out much of what is the modern USA, were a very peaceful people, with only a few exceptions. The things they did, were in response to the things done to them. BTW, thanks for the smallpox littered blankets.

Marty8613 - Yaqui tribe.

Edit - to the OP. There is nothing wrong having some feeling towards your prey. You are making use of what you kill. It is how life is. I wish more people understood, that eating meat, means killing something. You are being honest with your place in life.

Last edited by Marty8613; May 15, 2014 at 12:34 PM. Reason: To the OP
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