The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 27, 2014, 11:08 AM   #26
DPris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2004
Posts: 4,680
There are rubber stock extenders that "bolt" right on, using the same screws & holes already there.
Had one on mine for over 20 years.
Does make a difference.
Denis
DPris is offline  
Old May 27, 2014, 03:48 PM   #27
SpringOWeiler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2014
Location: Washington (Dry Side)
Posts: 110
Kind of a flawed question in itself.
What do you define as good accuracy?
My 700 shoots 1.25moa any day of the week. You'll find a whole crowd on here who thinks that is abysmally poor.
My WASR10 Ak shoots 3.5moa any day of the week.
With my highly tuned handloads I've gotten it down too 2 and a bit moa.
My Yugo sks will hit everytime on a 12" plate at 150 yards if you do the effort. Looks to be about the same MOA as the AK maybe a bit worse.
My Yugo M76 (8mm Mauser DMR Rifle) shoots 1.5-2.25moa depending on the # of rounds fired.
My point is get the proper rifle for your intended use.

If accuracy is what you want buy a ruger american, or savage axis bolt gun and spend $200 on a decent scope get it in 223 or 308 for the availability of inexpensive surplus ammo.
If collectiblity is your concern choose either. Both the AK and SKS have a long history. Just FYI don't be an idiot and buy an sks too turn it into an AK. Those detachable mags are a joke, and the rear receiver scope mount is pretty pathetic. The companies that make those products have survived on noobs who ignore more experienced peoples advice who have tried them and threw them in the trash because the irons did better.

If you want both accuracy and military history buy an AR.

Performance wise the sks (yugo) will shoot 110fps faster than my AK with the same ammo. Shut off the gas valve and it's about 175fps faster.
SpringOWeiler is offline  
Old May 27, 2014, 09:21 PM   #28
tangolima
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 645
Good to know. Your SKS shoots better than 12" at 150 yards. I bet it does better than 8" at 100 yards, probably 6".

That's what I am getting with my Yugo SKS, no matter what trick I pull from my bag to accurize it. The only way I can get it to shoot close to my standard of 2moa is light load with lighter projectiles. This is indicative of bedding deficiency. The structure just flexes too much under stronger recoil. Overall I am rather dissapointed with its performance.

If not for its history, I sold it already.

-TL
tangolima is offline  
Old May 27, 2014, 10:05 PM   #29
SpringOWeiler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2014
Location: Washington (Dry Side)
Posts: 110
I've never put the effort in to truly see what my sks can do. Gotta get a better prescription so I can actually have a consistent point of aim. I mostly shoot offhand with the sks and that's what I"m talking about for hitting at 150.

There are 3 reasons why the 7.62x39 rifles tend to shoot quite liberal groups.
1. Wrong bullet diameter most have 311-312 bores while all the new ammo is 310.
2. Short sight radius.
3. Over fast twist rate. 1-9.5 is better suited for the 150+ Over spinning the 123's sacrifices some accuracy but makes them tumble much sooner upon hitting a target. (Lethality)

Last edited by SpringOWeiler; May 27, 2014 at 10:32 PM.
SpringOWeiler is offline  
Old May 27, 2014, 10:22 PM   #30
skizzums
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2013
Location: Douglasville, Ga
Posts: 1,882
you seem to be taking the same road that I did, my first rifle was the mosin for cost/ammo availability reasons and loved it. then the AWB talk was going on so I got an SKS because it could take extended detach mags and also had ammo available. I went s little kookoo with my SKS, shortened barrel, bullpupped and all that jazz, I loved it and I learned a lot and have no regrets. its a fun gun with cheap ammo in a versatile platform with lots of tacticool upgrades available if you like that sort of thing. after a few years enjoying guns though, I have sold my russians, the mosin is just too heavy and I almost never bring it to the range, and the sks just cant do what an ar15 can do. I enjoyed my Russian milsurp timebut have moved on, but don't let this discourage you from buying on, I thoroughly enjoyed the sks and will maybe buy one again if I come across a great deal. my main reason for selling is that I am really into reloading my own ammo now and hate that it costs an arm and a leg to get hands on brass casings. but if your not a reloader, the sks is a great all-purpose defense rifle, packs a punch and some good reliable cheap ammo available, I cant remember ever having a jam or hiccup with the sks

here's the ol girl when I finally sold it, def got lots of attention at the range; like I sad there is a lot of options available for an sks, and the bullpup is something I definitely recommend. don't look for past 100 yard accuracy, but 100 and under you should be able to keep it under 3-4" if your gun is in good shape

__________________
My head is bloody, but unbowed
skizzums is offline  
Old May 27, 2014, 10:46 PM   #31
Ricklin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Location: North Orygun Coast
Posts: 617
True dat...........They are built for smaller stature people, and that ain't me.

A slip on recoil pad helps a bunch. There are also loads of Repl. stocks for them.

My old Chinese SKS wears a folder and a red dot that makes it pretty comfy. My Russian remains stock, but I don't shoot it much, it's pretty much a safe czarina.

An old Chinese SKS makes a perfect salt water boat gun.
1. It will work if it gets a little rusty.
2. They are (or used to be) cheap enough that you don't mind the rust.
__________________
ricklin
Freedom is not free
Ricklin is offline  
Old May 27, 2014, 11:12 PM   #32
Ignition Override
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2008
Posts: 1,777
Colt46: Even though the SKS stocks seem short to many of us who are 5'11", my two FR8s, Enfield "Jungles" seem to have a similar length of pull (LOP).

The low-cost 1" plastic recoil pad goes on the SKS each time simply to lengthen the stock.
Ignition Override is offline  
Old May 28, 2014, 01:05 PM   #33
SteveBonning
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2011
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 127
If the prices have 'gone insane' I suspect there's a reason. That reason is demand, and the SKS's are in demand because they're very good semiauto rifles.
__________________
Steve Bonning, PA-C
Licensed Collector of Curios & Relics
Maryland Designated Collector
SteveBonning is offline  
Old May 28, 2014, 01:12 PM   #34
leadcounsel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 1,738
SKS is a better battle rifle, for it's era, than the Mosin was for it's era. States otherwise, the SKS is better among its peers than the Mosin was among its peers.

I love the Mosin, but recognize that it was nowhere near the best bolt guns made in the era (behind the 1903, 1917 Eddystone, Mausers, K31...). The real merit of the Mosin is the affordability. The SKS, however, is still quite relevant by todays semi-auto standards (not saying the Mosin is irrelevant, to be clear), and is worth more than current prices demonstrate. The SKS is barely behind modern semi-auto battle rifles like the AR and AK variants, FAL, PTR91, M1s, etc.

Get one. They're still very reasonably well priced, but you missed out on the bargain basement prices. In the '90s they were $50. In the early 2000's they were $150-200. But even at $400, current prices, they are a good deal.

I've extensive experience with the SKS. They are reliable, accurate, well-balanced, and great rifles. I can ring a 18" gong reliably from 200 yards. with open sights. You can probably expect somewhere around 4-8 MOA from a SKS with surplus ammo. There is perhaps a drawback... if you like detachable mags that is a real trick. My advice, leave the box mag in the weapon, and get used to stripper clips. If you must have a detachable mags, you can find a D model, which uses AK mags as designed. Avoid aftermarket detachable mags as they rarely work. If you youtube how to use stripper clips, they can be as effectively fast as mag changes, and stripper clips are much lighter to carry (you can carry more ammo for the same weight vs in magazines).

Also I've read they are prone to slamfire due to the design of the firing pin. So be careful.
__________________
2A: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF (2008, 2009, 2010) and OND (2011). Bronze Star Medal and Meritorious Service Medal recipient. NRA Lifetime Member. I'm a lawyer, but not YOUR lawyer and I have not offered you legal advice.

Last edited by leadcounsel; May 28, 2014 at 01:40 PM.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old May 28, 2014, 02:41 PM   #35
tangolima
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 645
I wouldn't say 4-8 MOA is barely behind the other military auto loaders of the time, such as m1, it is significantly behind. Considering 7.62x39 is much lighter load than .30-06, it is way behind in accuracy.

-TL
tangolima is offline  
Old May 28, 2014, 03:05 PM   #36
leadcounsel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 1,738
Quote:
I wouldn't say 4-8 MOA is barely behind the other military auto loaders of the time, such as m1, it is significantly behind. Considering 7.62x39 is much lighter load than .30-06, it is way behind in accuracy.
Point taken, but my estimate was just that, an estimate. 8 MOA is an extremely bad sample SKS. More commonly at the lower end of the scale, with less-well produced surplus ammo. I have several off-the-rack surplus SKS rifles that fire in the low MOA range. And, the M1 typically has better quality ammo available. Give the SKS better quality ammo and the MOA is much more competitive.

Finally, given that fighting distances for infantry troops is commonly within 200 yards, a COM point of aim is a hit and effective kill with both rifles and calibers at standard fighting ranges.
__________________
2A: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF (2008, 2009, 2010) and OND (2011). Bronze Star Medal and Meritorious Service Medal recipient. NRA Lifetime Member. I'm a lawyer, but not YOUR lawyer and I have not offered you legal advice.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old May 28, 2014, 03:55 PM   #37
SpringOWeiler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2014
Location: Washington (Dry Side)
Posts: 110
The shooters skills dictate the accuracy of the sks, and all millsurps for that matter. After seeing the groups of this thread creator, I would consider 8moa to be probably a good temporary goal. (His 25yrd mosin target translates into 20moa at 100 yards). The sks was never designed to be a target rifle. Its a weapon of war, the big sights prevent repeatable point of aim shoots. However, the sights work well in almost all lighting conditions which can't always be said about peep sights and "fine" styles of sights.
SpringOWeiler is offline  
Old May 28, 2014, 10:31 PM   #38
Doc TH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 15, 2005
Posts: 509
Most folks who shoot good quality SKS rifles have reported 100 yd groups of 4inches or less (MilSpec for M1 Garands in WWII). That has been my experience as well. The limit seems to be more related to ammo quality (the majority shooting Russian FMJ ammo) than the rifle itself. I believe these are well made rifles that are still a bargain.
Doc TH is offline  
Old May 28, 2014, 11:28 PM   #39
tangolima
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 645
The best I can get, with hand loads, glass bedding, barrel shiming, disassembling bayonet, bench rest, and whatever tricks I could come up, is 3 MOA at 100 yards.

Better than 2 MOA for the m1, mostly without excessive tinkering.

-TL
tangolima is offline  
Old May 28, 2014, 11:43 PM   #40
leadcounsel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 1,738
Head to head comparisons that favor the M1 are hardly fair.

I realize I made statements that the SKS isn't far behind, but also factor in the M1 is a much more refine weapon, with much better sites, using much higher skilled labor, at a price that is several times the price of the SKS.

Let's end the comparison, and get back to the OP. For my part, I apologize for the derail... this wasn't intended as a M1 vs. SKS thread according to the OP.
__________________
2A: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF (2008, 2009, 2010) and OND (2011). Bronze Star Medal and Meritorious Service Medal recipient. NRA Lifetime Member. I'm a lawyer, but not YOUR lawyer and I have not offered you legal advice.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old June 1, 2014, 09:39 AM   #41
Singlesix1954
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2009
Location: Rural Ne
Posts: 577
Find one, buy it, shoot it, and then post you findings. If you buy it now the value has nowhere to go but up.
__________________
Luke 22:36
Single six 1954
Singlesix1954 is offline  
Old June 1, 2014, 02:55 PM   #42
WhyteP38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2005
Location: Behind a keyboard.
Posts: 1,535
Quote:
I am now looking into getting an SKS, as the design and hardiness of these Russian Battle Rifles Amazes me ... And are the generally accurate rifles? As far as battle rifles I mean? Are they worth the cost?
The best way to answer your questions is to first have you answer this question: What do you intend to do with it?

An SKS's plinking accuracy is plenty good enough, and the fun/$ ratio is among the best. Ditto for a reliable truck gun that you don't care whether it gets scratched up or not. Well worth the cost.

The same is generally true for self-defense in the immediate area of your homestead, although I'd say there are better choices than the 7.62x39 for that purpose. Worth the cost, but not necessarily the best choice, considering what's at stake.

At longer distances, accuracy begins to suffer. For long-range SD or for target shooting where you want one ragged hole or a close approximation, not worth the cost, IMHO.
WhyteP38 is offline  
Old June 1, 2014, 03:36 PM   #43
tangolima
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 645
Long-range SD? Against a gang of invading paper targets? SD may not go well with long-range I am afraid.

-TL
tangolima is offline  
Old June 1, 2014, 10:44 PM   #44
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,181
self defense with a rifle is usually inside your house. there is no long range about it. if you are killing people at long range, it's not self defense, it's warfare.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old June 1, 2014, 11:20 PM   #45
Model12Win
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 572
^ This.

I think the longest police sharpshooter shot ever taken was something like 150 yards away.

People may fantize about needing long-range defense weaponry, but the fact of reality is, not only will you never need that kind of capacity in a defensive arm, it brings in all kind of legal issues.

I'll be the first to say it: a 300 yard effective range is the LAST thing I would worry about in a defense weapon.
Model12Win is offline  
Old June 2, 2014, 05:14 AM   #46
WhyteP38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2005
Location: Behind a keyboard.
Posts: 1,535
While I agree that long-range SD has doubtful legitimacy, I know of some ranchers in the west, near the border of Mexico, who insist otherwise. I simply included it because I don't know the OP's situation.
WhyteP38 is offline  
Old June 2, 2014, 05:46 AM   #47
gyvel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 5,229
Since advance units of the Soviet Army carried them into Berlin in 1945, they rightfully have a place as a WWII gun, albeit with a short history.

If you can swing the extra $$$ try to find a decent Russian one.
gyvel is offline  
Old June 4, 2014, 04:16 AM   #48
Justice06RR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2010
Location: Central FL
Posts: 1,273
SKS accuracy is plenty capable, usually on par or better than most AK's except the top end brands i.e. Arsenal etc.

In the current price point of SKS, they are still very much worth it. Their prices is starting to go up--which kinda followed the trend of where AK's used to be.

AK47's used to be in the $250-300 range, now they are around $500+ for a good starter AK. We will probably see the SKS follow suit in the next few years. The cheapest AK's I've seen are around $269 IIRC from Classic Firearms. Locally they are well above $400 in my area.

Don't overlook the Chinese and Yugo models also. The Chinese SKS's have chrome lined bores which is a big plus. Yugo's have flash hiders and grenade laucher features which are neat IMO.

Russians of course are worth every penny esp if you can find all matching #'s.

I just picked up another Chinese SKS from a LGS in my area. I did overpay a little (over $400) but it had all matching parts and in original condition with shiny bore and very nice wood.

Good luck in your search!


Eta: If SKS's are going up in price now, Mosin's will soon follow suit. Buy them both while they are relatively cheap!
Justice06RR is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12792 seconds with 8 queries