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Old April 20, 2014, 06:25 AM   #26
simonrichter
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First of all, thank you all for your contributions.

Generally, I need something that literally fits INSIDE my backpack. Openly carrying a rifle does not seem advisable in said situation, since it again adds to the weight and draws unwanted attention (Even more, I would have to reach my place in the mountains by foot).

As far as the purpose is concerned, it is surely not primarily for self defense, but more in the style of an "all-round, better-than-a-stick" option for the unlikely case that the situation shifts in whatever way that makes you want to have more than a knife among your assets.

----

Quote:
Just curious... what precisely is considered a "takedown"?
the Austrian law says: "every rifle or shotgun that can be quickly disassembled in a way that exceeds the means commonly used for sporting and hunting" This leaves the ministry of the interior a lot of room for interpretation. In any case, normal length hunting rifles that can be disassembled with a screw are OK, while the often mentioned AR-7 is definitely out.

----

Quote:
I used to carry a Beretta 21 in the aircraft for a light survival gun.
Quote:
I'd feel far from naked with any good 22
That helps me with my decision and I guess if .22 makes sense, I shall add a pistol to my BOB. I have a PT22 ply which is quite similar but even lighter (poly) than the Beretta. Even more, pistols of this design can also be comfortably used as single shots for using underpowered rounds or snakeshots which do not circle.
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Last edited by simonrichter; April 20, 2014 at 06:31 AM.
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Old April 20, 2014, 08:25 AM   #27
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I'm mostly a semi auto shooter, but the gun in my emergency kit is a 3" Ruger SP101. The range of ammo available here in .357/.38 makes it a versatile choice. Light .38 wadcutter target rounds make excellent small game loads, with less meat damage than a hyper .22 hollowpoint. Deer sized game can be taken with appropriate .357 loads at reasonable ranges, and no one disputes the effectiveness of the .357 for defensive purposes. It is currently a non-military caliber, but still very popular and ammo is usually available. The gun is compact enough to carry or pack, but easier to shoot than most lightweight snubbies.
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Old April 20, 2014, 11:51 PM   #28
Doc TH
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Bug out pistol

Simon, given the restrictions on centerfire handgun cartridges you cite, and the difficulty you perceive with transporting even a .22 rifle, then you are probably correct that a .22 pistol is the most logical choice. However, I would not favor a pistol the size of the Beretta 21 or the comparable Taurus. While I enjoy shooting my Beretta 21, it has serious limits with respect to utility and accuracy - the rudimentary sights and short barrel are problematic. Moreover, the lack of an extractor might be an issue in the event of a misfire. If you are putting it in a backpack, then a larger pistol such as a Ruger 22/45, Buckmark, Beretta Neos, and the like will be a better choice. You might even find a used Beretta 70-series that would be more compact, yet a highly reliable pistol.
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Old April 21, 2014, 10:07 AM   #29
simonrichter
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Yeah, a less "mouse gun - like" one came to my mind as well; yet the REALLY small size also serves the purpose since it is more likely to actually be taken along rather than being yet designated but sorted out in favor of any other supply or gear. But as far as the ballistic performance is concerned, a bigger one would be better, of course.
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Old April 21, 2014, 12:08 PM   #30
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Okay, so it has to fit in the backpack, and takedown rifles are out. Hmmmm....

Is .22WMR ammo something you can easily get, or are you stuck with just .22LR? If you can get .22 magnums, a 9 shot revolver like a Taurus Tracker would be a good option. If .22LR is your best option, I would go with a Ruger MkIII.
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Old April 21, 2014, 08:23 PM   #31
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IMO the Ruger bearcat .22lr revolver would be worth considering.
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Old April 21, 2014, 09:15 PM   #32
PatientWolf
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I would probably be looking for something in stainless steel for a back-pack gun. Since you are looking at .22, you might want to look into a Buckmark if you want a semi-automatic or a Ruger SP-101 or Smith and Wesson model 63 if you want a revolver.
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Old April 21, 2014, 09:39 PM   #33
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Simon,

As you narrow your choices down, you seem to lean toward the 22 pistol because of light weight, availability of ammunition, and the ability to carry the 22 handgun unobtrusively. If you have access to the 22 CB cap ammunition I think it would be worth considering. It is less powerful than regular speed 22 ammunition, but it is very quiet in a 4-inch barrel and silenced in a 6-inch barrel. If you shoot over the top of a squirrel with this ammunition you probably won't alert him. Also, every time you pull the trigger you won't have to think is this shot worth announcing my presence to the world? The 22 CB caps work fine in a revolver, but they won't work the action of a semi-auto. I often use these CB caps to supplement my diet when I don't want to disturb the woods.
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Old April 21, 2014, 10:45 PM   #34
Bill DeShivs
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I have never seen a CB cap that was silent from any handgun. Rifles, yes.
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Old April 22, 2014, 05:11 AM   #35
simonrichter
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The problem is that CB caps would not cycle, of course.
Since I have a tip-up Barrel pistol which I can use in single-shot mode, I have indeed tried something similar to a CB cap ("room training ammunition" which has no charge but only uses the primer to propel the bullet). It is far from silent, though there is a recognizable difference in the sound level compared to a standard or HV load. Surprisingly, the performance isn't much worse.
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Old April 22, 2014, 12:56 PM   #36
Southern Shooter
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Rossi M88 .38 Special

I keep an older 5-shot stainless Rossi model 88 .38 Special with a 3" barrel in my bug-out-bag. I found it in a pawn shop and bought it specifically for the purpose of being permanantly stored in my bug-out-bag. I shoot it a couple times a year, clean it, then stash it back in the bag...and, the bag is kept in my truck so it is with me no matter where I go.

Lock-up is tight and it groups well at 15 yards. I believe it would meet most of the basic needs of a BOB gun in a SHTF situation. And, being small carrying it while bugging out it won't draw much attention.

Example:
Rossi m88.jpg

On a side note, I do have a single-shot Rossi youth size .22LR rifle. If I had the time, it would be easy to toss in a some rounds and, on being broken down, the rifle will slide inside the bug-out-bag. Out to 50 yards it is easy to hit squirrel size objects and it is very light.

Example:
Rossi .22LR Youth Crack-barrel.jpg
These are not high-end tools. And, they cost less than $300 for the both. But, they have proven themselves to be dependable and within their realm of use, durable.
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Last edited by Southern Shooter; April 22, 2014 at 01:53 PM.
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Old April 22, 2014, 01:11 PM   #37
Skans
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Quote:
I thought about adding a small .22 mouse gun.
For that purpose, I'd consider the Kel Tec PMR 30. 30 rounds of .22 Magnum in a lightweight gun - not bad.
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Old April 22, 2014, 02:47 PM   #38
simonrichter
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Quote:
Kel Tec PMR 30. 30 rounds of .22 Magnum in a lightweight gun
Have already considered this one, yet it seems to be unavailable on this side of the pond... And I always wonder whether .22 WMR performs so much better then .22lr out of a short pistol barrel...?
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Old April 22, 2014, 10:45 PM   #39
Sabrewolfe
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With the right loads, yeah, .22WMR does very well even from short barrel weapons.

As an example...
http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=q-cq...zzSSGAIswXxodI

Setting aside special short barrel loads though, as far as pure velocity with basic stuff, out of a 2" snubby there isn't much difference between LR and WMR. Once you hit 4"+, though, the difference is substantial.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html
vs
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22mag.html
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Old April 23, 2014, 12:12 AM   #40
Brotherbadger
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Honestly, you are going to be hard pressed to find any kind of rifle that fits in your bag without breaking it down. Have you thought about adding a Rifle Scabbard to attach to your bag? That way the gun remains out of sight and you don't have to break it down. It adds a bit of weight, but it frees up a bit of space within the bag while allowing you to carry almost any rifle easily. I am personally a fan of the Ruger 10/22 for a bug out gun. It's relatively light, well made and easy to shoot.
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Old April 23, 2014, 12:36 AM   #41
makarov
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I bought my daughter a CZ Scout rifle, small but not too small that an adult can't shoot it. I'm 6'3" and shoot it fine. Very accurate. If you can't have a folding stock rifle. I also have a Ruger 10/22 with a side folder. Great option compared to the takedown 10/22 which I think is stupid. My side folder is almost the same size and is ready immediately.
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Old April 23, 2014, 01:37 AM   #42
psyfly
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I have, in a bug out bag, a Springfield Armory Mil-spec with addition of a Kimber .22 lr conversion.

A zip-lock bag with 40 rounds of .45ACP and 200 rds of .22lr goes along, as well.

A little heavier than the .22 set-up alone, but I think the versatility is worth it.

The .22 conversion is sufficiently accurate for small game.
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Old April 23, 2014, 09:29 AM   #43
mxsailor803
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I don't know if its available across the pond or not, but I've been thinking about one of these to make into a survival rifle

http://www.chiappafirearms.com/products/136
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Old April 24, 2014, 04:40 AM   #44
simonrichter
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the chiappa is a fine example how the simple, not oversophisticated things still do their job... (and no, I strongly doubt whether it is available here... The authorities in Austria seem to be obsessed of potential poachers, so little folding rifles have the same classification as, say, a howitzer)

There is a nice review on gunblast.com's youtube channel.
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Old April 24, 2014, 10:12 AM   #45
Southern Shooter
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.22 Ammunition

simonrichter,
What .22 ammunition is readily availble there? What prices are you looking at?
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Old April 24, 2014, 01:39 PM   #46
simonrichter
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Quote:
What .22 ammunition is readily available there? What prices are you looking at?
there is no problem with availability whatsoever I'm aware of. I do not burn too much stuff, but whenever I needed any resupply in recent years, it used to be available. Prices are around EUR 7,- or 8,- for a 100rd brick, around USD 10,-
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Old April 24, 2014, 01:59 PM   #47
Southern Shooter
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High Velocity

Are you able to obtain good quality high velocity .22 LR ammo? Hollow-points and solids? (CCI Stinger and Velocitor, or Remington Yellow Jacket and Viper 22) With those in a long-barrel revolver and a youth sized rifle a lot of needs can be met.

P.S.
Have you considered these Crickett firearms .22 firearms?

single-shot pistol
http://crickett.com/crickett_22_pistol.php

single-shot youth rifle
http://crickett.com/crickett_22_LR.php
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Old April 24, 2014, 02:38 PM   #48
simonrichter
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Quote:
Are you able to obtain good quality high velocity .22 LR ammo?
reckon I would be, yes. My current .22 option does not eat hot loads (or so the manual says), so I'm not 100% positive, but I fancy at least of of the mentioned should be available, thanks for the advice.
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Old April 24, 2014, 04:50 PM   #49
40-82
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Bill Deshivs,

From my experience a CB cab from a 4 inch barrel made very little sound. From a 6 inch barrel it was virtually silent. It seemed to me the sound of the hammer falling was louder than the cartridge going off. On the other hand you may have the advantage of having actual hearing, and with my poor level of hearing I could be wrong. Good to know.

From a rifle with an ordinary length barrel I find 22 shorts almost totally silent. I am wrong there too?
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Old April 24, 2014, 08:28 PM   #50
lamarw
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I am rather remote already. As my profile indicates, I live on 40,000 + acre fresh water lake with 7,000 aces of forest surrounding my house. Therefore, I have all the firearms, ammo, and fishing equipment readily available. I can fish right of my dock/boathouse.

Here is thinking outside the box. (I hate it when my cats think outside their litter box, and I suspect some will hate this idea.) It is stamped on the barrel as a 1950 production Polish Flare Gun. It fires 26.5mm flares. I have also acquired barrel inserts to fire 12 gauge flares (not safe for 12 gauge shotgun shells), .45 Colt or .410 shotgun shells, and .22 rim fire rounds. Total investment approximately two hundred bucks.

Hopefully the pictures will come up showing what the satchel will tote. The total weight is around 5 & 1/2 lbs. I could actually get additional rounds and/or different configurations of rounds if one chose.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Polish2.jpg (109.7 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg Polish1.jpg (120.9 KB, 35 views)
File Type: jpg Polish3.jpg (113.8 KB, 27 views)
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