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Old March 16, 2014, 10:19 AM   #1
joyrider51
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Conicals for 44 and 36

I'am getting very good at making my own paper cartridges, but restricted in the area with making/casting my own bullets... is the some one who makes and sales 36 and 44 BP revolver conicals..?
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Old March 16, 2014, 10:46 AM   #2
salvadore
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I've got maybe 200 of cast lee conicals. They work fine in my ASM Navy Colt. I sent some to Doc Hoy a while back but don't know if he ever shot any.



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Old March 16, 2014, 10:52 AM   #3
dr1445
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you might try dd4lifeusmc, for sure he has some for 44. see the for sale section "items for sale [WY]". If your loading for a newer pietta you might need to load the cylinder off the gun. i got one one of those cabela's remington 44 2013 xmas sale guns and i had to grind a clearance in the frame to load conicals on the gun.
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Old March 16, 2014, 10:53 AM   #4
joyrider51
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Salvador look great, how do I get me some/purchase... I'am having great experience with conicals in my 1861 Springfield and want to shoot the pistol 44 and 36..
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Old March 16, 2014, 02:59 PM   #5
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Kaido Ojamma offers 3 .44 caliber conicals and 1 .36 conical which are based on Elmer Keith's designs but for percussion revolvers.

You can buy rounds from him or order his Lee made molds.

The .36 conical shoots just as accurately in my Pietta Remington Belt Model as the round balls do. Can't wait to shoot the 240 grain conicals in my New Model Army.

The 255 grain conical went through 15 1 gallon water jugs and kept on going. Try equalling that with modern rifle or revolver designs!
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Old March 18, 2014, 11:09 AM   #6
rodwhaincamo
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Kaido makes the 240 and 255 grn .44/.45 cal bullets. What is his third .44/.45 cal bullet you mentioned?
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Old March 18, 2014, 12:26 PM   #7
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It's a short 200 grain conical. Haven't seen a picture of it yet.
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Old March 18, 2014, 01:30 PM   #8
rodwhaincamo
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Was it designed to work in Piettas or something?

I had to really open my Pietta '58 up to allow even my .400" 170 grn WFN bullets to load easier, and the 195 grn version needed further opening. Had the nose not been so blunt, but more RN, they might have worked without modification.
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Old March 18, 2014, 03:38 PM   #9
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I believe so. Why not ask him?
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Old March 18, 2014, 08:03 PM   #10
rodwhaincamo
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Just curious. I don't venture there too often anymore. It's more fun to design it yourself anyway, and you get exactly what you want (or think that you do anyway).
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Old March 19, 2014, 09:21 AM   #11
DD4lifeusmc
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44 conicals

Maybe it's just me, but it seems the newer models both colt and remington style the manufacturers are making the loading area smaller.
For some reason maybe they want us to use only round balls.
Couple my older models had plenty of room.
While you may not want to do it for a variety of reasons it really won't affect the guns strength or durability if you use a dremel to slightly open the loading area. polish it and then reblue it. Done it to several of mine.
Or you can do as suggested, load the cylinder off the gun.
I do cast and sell both the Lee 45-200 and a custom swc design 45-195
the 45-195 has a rebated base for slightly easier loading.
Going to be doing another custom one in the next week or so.
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Old March 19, 2014, 11:48 AM   #12
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So, the guy I got this 5.5" Pietta remmi from said that he and his wife already had the 8" vers for awhile and that he got them both the shorter ones, but she preferred her 8" so thats how I ended up with it... Just a little background there, as it sounded like they shot quite a bit.

Working from memory here, but IIRC he said that he an old 170gr (Layman i think?) mold that made cast hollowpoints. He said that his and his wifes hand cannons all loved them... Went on to describe some incredible accuracy (like 6" groups at 100yrds or some such), and that backing it with 35grs of 777 made it a formidable round, even up to being in the lower range of deer hunting capability. Unfortunately, he wouldnt sell any as the mold only cast one at a time and was just too time consuming... And the mold has been out of production for quite awhile.

So... I wonder 1, does anyone make decent hollowpoint conicals? Are they worth it? This guy swore by them... But if they are so awesome then why is the market not flooded with them? And likewise,2, if this round is even half of what this fella claimed it was, why in the WORLD would laymen stop making the molds for it? it SEEMS that 170grs would fit almost as well as a RB, and that being HP would indeed make it a great hunting or even defense round... But of course I could be wrong. Just wondering why it seems that no one is even trying to come out with a viable HP... Sure wish someone would.
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Old March 19, 2014, 12:20 PM   #13
rodwhaincamo
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You can have a hollow point made by http://www.hollowpointmold.com.

I'm considering doing it with my 170 and one of my 195 grn cavities.

I think part of the problem is demand. I don't think there's enough demand as most people prefer modern firearms. And those who do like these old guns seem to, overall, go with RB's.

It was the availability/cost of FN bullets that caused me to have a custom mold made. But I also liked that I could have it designed just how I thought it best, and not what someone else had in mind. I don't see any other cap n ball bullets heavier than 255 grns and with a FN.

But I also had mine designed so that they were as short as possible since powder capacity is effected. And then I also had the driving bands made wider than usual to create more pressure, which increases velocity. And then the width of the nose is wider than most so that it creates a larger wound track, but it also helps keep it shorter.
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Old March 19, 2014, 12:39 PM   #14
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rodwhaincamo-

I wonder if the reason that people mostly choose RB isnt because most conicals dont offer anything much more in the way stopping power? I mean the present conicals can be up to twice as expensive, but they dont even come close to offering twice the power so why bother right? BUT, wouldnt this situation change if a truly viable HP existed? That is provided of course that the low pressures involved in BP would even make the HP expand as expected? Make that said HP, or even just the mold for it, affordable and I think it would be something of a hit... I mean they DO make HP for the standard 45LC, and the cast HP might be useable in both BP and cartage.. I think?

For future reference, I already got DD4life in mind as well, but are you going to be selling any of your conicals as well? If so, it sure would be cool you got that 170gr your talking about but also have one made up the same way for HP... Id love to try both, as finances allow...
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Old March 19, 2014, 01:17 PM   #15
rodwhaincamo
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I've read quite a bit of posts about pure lead expanding quite large, and plenty that other than rifling or patch marks, they look almost pristine. I felt a wide nose, if it expanded, would begin from that diameter vs it being a ball with a much smaller surface contact point.

I have to wonder at the few statements by CW vets stating the ball was very effective at stopping men, whereas the conicals weren't. I always figured it must be that the balls were traveling much faster and did indeed expand. The conicals were something between a RN and a sharp Picket type bullet, which would have allowed the flesh to stretch creating a smaller wound channel.

I am interested in finding out if my lighter bullets expand well or not, and if not having some hollow pointed.

I hadn't actually considered selling any, but there has been a great interest by many. SWMBO has felt I ought to, which would help pay for the mold and/or range fees. Not much of a business, but it could be some pocket change. And I enjoy casting anyway...
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Old March 19, 2014, 01:24 PM   #16
rodwhaincamo
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I've offered a small sample to several people who have been interested, and I've asked just for the shipping fee reimbursed as I just don't get much $$$ for my hobbies (I've been a stay at home dad for a while now), and SWMBO certainly isn't going to want to pay for it.

You are obviously interested, and so I'll offer you the same.

It'll be a little while longer before I get around to casting a bunch more (it took a looooong time to get this mold hot enough to drop quality bullets so most when back into the pot). I wanted to try some myself and post what I find. May find they aren't very good at all, and then I'd be a bit embarrassed that I've spoken so much about them.

I'm not a great pistol shot though so my standards aren't super high, though my skills are fair enough as I can still keep 'em all in the black at 15 yds offhand. And so I keep practicing….
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Old March 19, 2014, 01:26 PM   #17
rodwhaincamo
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Most people clearly don't use these for much more than target shooting. And for that there's not much need for anything other than a RB.

And then there are those who state RB's are more accurate.

I believe that a conical would be better than a RB if the shot is a quartering type shot where it has to travel further. But I also like an exit wound.
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Old March 19, 2014, 01:56 PM   #18
swathdiver
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A cap and ball revolver does not need an expanding bullet to take out a man sized target or even a grizzly or buffalo for that matter.

Hard lead, jacketed rounds need to expand to be as powerful as a soft lead round ball or conical, not the other way around.

Civil War vets preferred the round ball over the conical because the conicals were pointed and went through a man leaving small holes. Modern Keith and Kaido type conicals punch full caliber holes in meat leaving a devastating wound channel.

The old Remington .45LC factory ammo was accurate with 40 grains of black powder pushing a 250 grain pointed bullet. That pointed bullet went through game without taking the fight out them, leaving little holes.

After having read Sixguns by Elmer Keith, I see no reason to reinvent the wheel or attempt to duplicate what Keith and Kaido have already done.
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Old March 19, 2014, 02:01 PM   #19
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Note also that today's reproductions use slower twist rifling in the barrels which is conducive to round ball accuracy and less expensive to produce than a gain or progressive twist.

ASMs, some Euroarms, the newer Uberti revolvers have twists under 1:30.

I believe the Ruger Old Army is 1:18.

Pietta's across the board are at 1:30.
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Old March 19, 2014, 02:26 PM   #20
Stormson
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rodwhaincamo-

Id be seriously interested in trying out those 170grs when ya get em... Kinda hesitant about the larger ones, as I am not ready to open the loading gate up just yet and from what I have read these newer Piettas arnt very accommodating of the larger conicals.

Im not really set up for any kind of serious testing though... The place we shoot is an old abandoned shack with a hill behind it.. My "shooting bench" an old chair we pulled out of the weeds.

For me, this is MUCH more then a paper puncher, which is why I am interested in pushing its limits. This is going to be my main working gun, or what we used to call kit guns. Something I always have and can be used in almost any situation, from dispatching wayward possums or snakes to dispatching wayward attackers...Maybe even a little hunting if I can get the right load down...Basically, my go to firearm. ANY edge I can get is something that im gonna be very interested in..
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Old March 19, 2014, 02:32 PM   #21
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swathdiver-

Id like to try those Kaidos, again, as money allows, as well... I was just thinking that IF soft lead HP would expand the way it does at higher pressures in more modern handguns, wow, what a devistating round that would be!

Any idea how much those Kaido rounds are? What are the lightest ones?
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Old March 19, 2014, 03:40 PM   #22
rodwhaincamo
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My understanding is that (newer ones?) Uberti's are 1:16 like the Ruger. I'm not certain about that though.

The wider flat nose is one of the reasons I chose it. If it doesn't expand it still creates a large hole. Expansion would just be a bonus, and something I'd prefer as it'll keep the bullet from damaging my neighbor's house.

I made a video showing what needs to be done to load Kaido's 240 grn FN bullet in a Pietta. You don't need to modify your loading window, but it does make it easier. His bullet has a little more taper to it though.

Last I saw Kaido was charging $50/100 + shipping. I bought some when they were $40/100, and that's what prompted me to look into a custom mold.
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Old March 20, 2014, 01:20 AM   #23
swathdiver
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Yes, in 2002 the Dragoon went to a 1:18 twist. The Remington followed with its forged frame in 2007.

You fellas ever ring steel with a round ball and recover it? They are the size of bottle caps. Over at Cast Boolits tonight another fella recounted the same thing when he recovered a soft .45 LC round from some big game animal.

Shooting soft lead does away with the need for all that fancy stuff they had to develop just so them newfangled jacketed bullets could keep up.
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Old March 20, 2014, 08:26 AM   #24
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Not sure why I just remembered this, but I recall reading a long time ago that sometimes folks in the old days, before modern HPs, would cut a cross in the top of those old soft lead rounds... Usually weaker ones like the .32S&W etc.. I suppose this would make a sort of primitive frangible round?
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Old March 20, 2014, 09:44 AM   #25
rodwhaincamo
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Speaking of frangible rounds…

I had considered trying a dry felt wad over the powder and dropping shot into the chamber and then filling it with beeswax. This way it will possibly hold together through the barrel and either work as a frangible round or maybe keep the majority of the group much tighter.

Just silly things I sometimes think of… I can't leave well enough alone at times I suppose.
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