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Old March 3, 2014, 05:39 PM   #1
Cousin Pat
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pistol calibers in rifles - 44mag vs 357mag

Looking at ballisticbytheinch.com, it looks like the faster 357mag gains at lot more energy from a 18" barrel than the slower 44Mag -- so that the muzzle energy advantage of 44 over 357 is only about 15% coming out of a rifle. This is of course at the muzzle -- I wonder what the comparison is at, say, 50 yards...
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Old March 3, 2014, 06:10 PM   #2
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Down load one of the ballistic apps and check out some specific loads.
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Old March 5, 2014, 02:46 AM   #3
bamaranger
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both

Own and shoot both........and the ME/chrono figures are not necessarily the end of the story. No doubt in my mind that an all up .44 carbine, particularly one of the heavy bullet loads at full house, say 265 grains and up, is far more gun than any .357 load.

It'd be interesting to see how much penetration one got in various mediums with a heavy/ tough slug from a .44 carbine.
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Old March 5, 2014, 08:07 AM   #4
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Muzzle energy is a poor benchmark for performance, using it alone overlooks many other much more important factors. While the 44 from BBTI only has 15% more energy the 240 hydra shok has about 50% more momentum.
I'd also add that there are no full power 44 mag loads listed on BBTI.

And the correct answer as always is get both.
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Old March 5, 2014, 08:13 AM   #5
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I am a huge 357 magnum fan. That said the 357 magnum is not the rifle the 44mag is. There is a little over lap. The Hottest 357s are hotter than the mildest 44 mags but in the upper (and even middle) ends the 44mag out does the 357 by a pretty big margin.

The 357 magnum out does the 44 only in recoil and price point. I guess you could say trajectory but not by much.
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Old March 5, 2014, 09:06 AM   #6
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Depends on whether you just want to PLAY with it or need it to do more. I've seen the difference between the two on deer and it is significant. If something bigger was on the game card, there's simply no comparison.
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Old March 5, 2014, 09:45 AM   #7
savagecornmuffin
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Da Numbas...

In an 18 in rifle, the trajectory difference in negligible (.5 inch @ 100yds). However, the 44 mag delivers 250 more ft/lbs at 100yds than the 357. I'm comparing 240 grain 44 mag @ 1600 FPS to 158 grain 357 mag @ 1700 fps.

That's likely the 2 most common off the shelf loads for each.
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Old March 5, 2014, 02:54 PM   #8
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Looking in one book, I found 240gr in the 1700fps range from a 20" carbine, and in another book, a load in the 1800fps range from an 18.5" barrel.

I've had both the Marlin carbines in .357 and .44, and I can tell you that the difference in recoil is quite noticeable. There may be only 15% difference in muzzle energy (cherry picking which loads to compare), but it sure feels like more than 15% in recoil to me.

A 158gr .357 bullet at 1700fps has a muzzle energy of 1014ft/lbs
A 240gr .429 bullet at 1600fps has a muzzle energy of 1365ft/lbs

At 50yds, the .44 has 1003ft/lbs
At 50yds, the .357 has 765ft/lbs


That's NOT 15%, its more like 1/3!
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Old March 5, 2014, 08:43 PM   #9
Art Eatman
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Beaucoup comments from hunters who rarely need to shoot at Bambi beyond 50 to 100 yards. For them, a .357 or .44 is as useful as an '06 is for me in wide-open country.
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Old March 7, 2014, 10:04 PM   #10
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44 mag out of a16.5" barrel has worked well on deer for me.

The woods I hunt make a hundred yard shot "long."
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Old March 9, 2014, 01:33 AM   #11
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As mavracer mentioned, bullet momentum will often be more important than kinetic energy of the bullet, especially for penetration. Mass is the more important component for momentum and velocity is the more important component for kinetic energy. You can see this in the formulas where M is mass and V is velocity:

Kinetic Energy = 1/2M x V2

Momentum = M x V
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Old March 9, 2014, 04:23 PM   #12
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A lot depends on the bullets you choose. In .357 you pretty much need a quality 158 JHP at max velocity. Muzzle energy will look impressive here.
.44 Mag, or better yet the .45 Colt, will do well with cast 240-255 SWCs or heavier LFPs at 1000-1200 fps, with less than impressive energy figures.

My allarounders in pistol caliber carbines are the .357 158 XTP with a full dose of HS-6 (~1500 fps? in my 22" Handi) and a 255 grain .452" LSWC over 8.0 Unique (~1050 fps) in my 20" H&R classic carbine.

The big bores are more fun to shoot.
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Old March 12, 2014, 04:08 PM   #13
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These are the velocities I got with 240 grain bullets in my Marlin 1894. At 100 yards a 44 Magnum from a rifle hits my gong targets very hard.

I was never interested in the 357 Magnum out of a rifle. Sure it will have less recoil, but I want more power.

I always thought using Kinetic Energy (mass times velocity squared) as a comparision between bullets was bogus, since only momentum (mass times velocity) is conserved. Gunwriters love KE because it squares the velocity and it is a lot easier to increase velocity, and thus KE, than increasing momentum.

The 44 Magnum has more momentum than the 357 and always will.

Code:
M1894 Marlin Ballard Barrel
				
				
240 Speer JHP 22.0 grs 2400 CCI 500	
21-Dec-01	T = 54  °F			
				
Ave Vel =1747			
Std Dev =21			
ES =68			
Low =1717			
High =1785			
N =7			
				
240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05	T = 65° F			
				
Ave Vel =1725			
Std Dev =7			
ES =21			
Low =1715		
High =1736			
N =5		 	 
				
				
240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05T = 65° F			
Ave Vel =1752			
Std Dev =12			
ES =28		
Low =1735			
High =1763			
N =5		 	 
				
				
240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F			
				
Ave Vel =1710			
Std Dev =3		
ES =9			
Low =1705			
High =1714			
N =5		 	 
				

				
240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F			
				
Ave Vel =1745			
Std Dev =12			
ES =45			
Low =1723			
High =1768			
N =10			
				
				
240 Rem JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05	T = 65° F			
			
Ave Vel =1719			
Std Dev =10			
ES =29		
Low =1705			
High =1734			
N =10		 	 
				


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Old March 13, 2014, 03:33 AM   #14
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Marlin 1894 pre-safety with Lyman receiver sight?
Nice!!!
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Old March 14, 2014, 07:00 PM   #15
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I don't know much about the 44. But I can tell you my info on 357.

20" Henry 357 and chrono @ 10 ft

125 grn bullet
22.2 grains w296
Magnum primer

Pushes 2250 f/s muzzle. 1440 ft/lb
2068 f/s 50 yds. 1188 ft/lb
1886 f/s @100yds 986 ft/lb

Last edited by Woodslab; March 14, 2014 at 07:09 PM.
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Old March 16, 2014, 12:37 AM   #16
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2250 fps? That's mach 2!
Well done.
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Old March 16, 2014, 02:35 PM   #17
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I have gotten 2200fps from the 18" Marlin .357 with 125s and a case full of 2400. Its neat.

BUT, the regular 125 JHP tends to come apart very violently when it hits something at that speed. Think varmint bullet or small grenade.

NOT a good choice where some penetration is needed.
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Old March 16, 2014, 03:07 PM   #18
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frag

Yeah, I had a Marlin carbine paired to a L-frame Smith for a while, both zeroed for 125 factory JHP. From the carbine, the 125 load was just absolutely explosive on vermin and ferals.
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