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Old March 4, 2014, 10:14 PM   #26
Nanuk
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I watched the video, this my opinion.

The cop did what cops are expected to do, they wrestle with bad guys. That never turns out well. Every time I attempted to handcuff anyone I was arresting, drunk or not and they resisted, I escalated force. I am not dancing, I am not playing by the same rules they are, if that means that I pound on their kidneys for a while than so be it. I am going home at the end of my shift.
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Old March 5, 2014, 03:56 AM   #27
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The man on the ground is obviously not armed and who are they a threat to laying on the ground? Is standing over the man straddling him the best tactic? Obviously this man on the ground got the better of the other man and the sad end result was death so these tactics were not acceptable.

The tactics of the man laying on the ground should be studied IMHO. That was a good reversal using the other mans weight to flip him over.

The end result here in any event was death and thats not acceptable. A different approach should have been used to engage the man on the ground. Engaging any man alone is very risky.
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Old March 5, 2014, 08:32 AM   #28
Bezoar
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i remember a real similar thread like this last year. it went ugly fast. threads like this need to be killed fast.

reality,

life is life. no matter what. it sucks. end of story.

conversely, if someone cant pass a drug/alcohol test or a mental competency test, or dont ignore the pink elephant sipping tea in the corner, then im not supposed to use deadly force?
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Old March 5, 2014, 09:24 AM   #29
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It wont get ugly if you stick with the topic and follow the forum style/rules. In this scenario there is a man on the ground intoxicated. How do you handle the situation if you must? Also the man on the ground executes a nice reversal move like I pointed out before. I think handling the man alone is a mistake. Standing over or near him also a mistake especially when alone.

Its a worthy video to study and contemplate.
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Old March 5, 2014, 11:47 AM   #30
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There is nothing like starting over everyday. no one remembers Rodney King, Rodney was laying on the ground. On a bad day I want to be laying on the ground, the dumbest think anyone can do when I am laying on the ground is stand over me, I decided many years ago I was not going to be a victim, I have had many interesting days, anyhow, Rodney had a plan, he was going to roll up on someone's legs, there is a good chance someone could have gotten their spine crushed.

As I remember there was a video of Rodney laying on the ground, I was in Los Anglers the day the first trial ended.

Two standards: On that day Reginald Denny became a victim.

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Old March 5, 2014, 12:28 PM   #31
ClydeFrog
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Post #29, serious threat.....

I disagree with post 29.
Who exactly are you going to have run to your aid in a critical incident?
Is a SWAT or SRT unit going to fast-rope down the second you call them?

Calling for back-up or contacting 911 is smart & sometimes necessary but you can't be risk-adverse either.
As for allowing a subject to flee or not to take any actions isn't a viable option either. A violent or aggressive subject who assaults/attacks a uniformed security guard-sworn LE officer is a greater or more serious threat to the general public.
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Old March 5, 2014, 12:58 PM   #32
johnelmore
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The individual in the video looks like he was laying down and possibly injured. He did not appear to be running from the other man or "fleeing". He wasnt actively assaulting the officer. I think he might not have known he was an officer in his drunken state. All he knew was there was a man standing over him and touching him aggressively.
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Old March 5, 2014, 12:59 PM   #33
spacemanspiff
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Quote:
The man on the ground is obviously not armed and who are they a threat to laying on the ground? Is standing over the man straddling him the best tactic?
Subdue and detain. Best tactic or not, what the off duty officer was doing in his role as hotel security, after witnessing the subject assault the cab driver, was the right thing to do. His decision to go hands on and detain was the right move to make.
Quote:
Standing over or near him also a mistake especially when alone.
johnelmore, do you have any experience doing security work? I'm wondering if your opinions are based on life experience or just assumptions.
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Old March 5, 2014, 01:07 PM   #34
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Quote:
The man on the ground is obviously not armed and who are they a threat to laying on the ground?
Really? You could see into his pockets and under his shirt or notice the ankle holster he was carrying?

None of us could see that so how could you?
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Old March 5, 2014, 02:51 PM   #35
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The minute he resisted he should be put down hard, the time for wrestling is over. I have seen it time and time again where an officer fails to use enough force soon enough and the fight gets out of control. As an officer you have an obligation to control the situation. He was more worried about the video-photographer than the guy he was fighting.
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Old March 5, 2014, 03:08 PM   #36
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Video?....

I don't think the poster watched the section of video where the fire-fighter flees & runs down the alley first.
He clearly knew the armed security guard/off duty police officer was there & that he was in the wrong.

Intoxicated or not, the subject was wrong. The clip also clearly shows him kicking, punching & striking the security guard/cop.

There's another recent incident of a OK City police Sgt who had a spat with a citizen, flew into a rage, arrested him & now he's facing assault & battery charges.
The citizen did not resist & yelled; "false arrest". He's going to get a big check from the OK City government.
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Old March 5, 2014, 04:11 PM   #37
Mainah
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We don't see what happens before the video starts, so I can't comment on why the officer engaged him on the ground. But in any case if you aren't a police officer this is exactly the type of guy to walk away from. On the ground or not, look at his shoulders. He's a big boy.
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Old March 5, 2014, 04:50 PM   #38
spacemanspiff
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Its actually not that difficult to discover. Google for 'Kansas City firefighter shot'. Theres current news links widely available.
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Old March 5, 2014, 05:48 PM   #39
Angelo Demuerte
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OP, you asked about other tactics.

There is a one 1 on 1 tactic taught where you gain control of th subject's wrist and lock it and pull it forward extending his arm from his shoulder, using body mechanics and momentum to bring the subject into the ground. At this point the wrist lock turns into an arm bar or chicken wing and the subject's neck is stepped on by the closest knee. This tactic starts at the front of subject and ends at the side of the subject.

There is another taught tactic where you snap a handcuff on one of the subject's wrist as soon as possible and use the handcuffs as a lever on the wrist to guide the subject into a different position.

Regardless what other tactics could have been used, ask yourself, whose actions were more dangerous to the other? Were the officer's actions more dangerous to the subject or were the subject's actions more dangerous to the officer? When asking yourself that, take into account only their actions and nothing else, not who you think is at fault or whether or not it could have been prevented.

The reason we have a lot of opinions in conversations like these is because we generally don't have all the facts.
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Old March 5, 2014, 10:24 PM   #40
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I feel like we are getting off topic. Let me try to regain the topic at hand.

Was the officers actions perfect in handling the man on the ground? Do you think the officer would have handled it differently if he had to do it again or was it a perfect execution?

Like I said, its a good video of what not to do. For example, right around the 40 second mark the officer flips around. This was his first mistake. He put himself in a position where the man on the ground can leverage. Then he loses focus and yells at the bystanders giving the man crucial seconds to pull a reversal move.

So my key takeaways are positioning and focus. Not putting yourself in a vulnerable position.
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Old March 6, 2014, 01:18 PM   #41
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"Perfect"?.....

I have no clue what you mean by "perfect"?
There is 100% no way any LE or security action will go the exact way you'd expect. I'm not sure why the actions of the cop/hotel guard are being scrutinized. What about the intoxicated fire-fighter?
There is a old US military maxim; "no plan ever stays intact after the first contact with the enemy".
We can speculate & pontificate all day long about what the police officer "could" have done or "should" have done. I have no issues with the officer's actions as reported & documented.

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Old March 6, 2014, 04:07 PM   #42
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To clarify I did say the fireman or the man on the ground is probably an alcoholic. I am just assuming that by his behavior. Obviously some issue exists with alcohol on his part.

This thread and many of the threads in this forum are about not getting into trouble with this type of person. Not only defending yourself, but handling it in the best way possible or learning how to avoid it.

Is the person who shoots in a self defense situation the one at fault? That issue will be debated in the courtroom. We try to avoid the situation and if we cant avoid it manage it to a successful outcome where we dont have to contend with a jury.
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Old March 6, 2014, 04:21 PM   #43
ClydeFrog
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Circles....

This topic thread is going in circles.
I'm not posting anything else. Clearly anyone who wants, can view the video & decide what they would or wouldn't do. I'm not going to play the "lets assume" or "what if" game. .
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Old March 6, 2014, 04:23 PM   #44
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We're done.
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