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Old February 22, 2014, 11:18 AM   #1
riverratt
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old debate new question

Hello to all. Allthough i am new to the site i have been reading alot of post for awile. I have found this site to provide a much higher level of informative debate than others. I am looking forward to having my two cents heard.

I am looking for some help on the old debate between 9mm and 45. More in paticular a sub-compact. I've been a .45 guy since i was 12 so with a full size the answers easy for me. However drop the velosity on an already slow round and expantion is lost. I was more or less wandering thoes of you with the sub-compact 9's whats your personal test show with standard pressure rounds.

Looking forward to your imput thans in advance.
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Old February 22, 2014, 11:27 AM   #2
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I started as a .45 guy and I still prefer that round. I also like 40S&W a lot too. The Ruger SR40c is a great little pistol. Maybe not small enough for your purposes though.

If you are looking for a smaller gun than the SR40c, there are lots of choices available in 9mm.
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Old February 22, 2014, 11:55 AM   #3
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I'm a firm believer in "Shot Placement is more important than caliber". With that said, caliber is still somewhat important. I wouldn't advocate carrying a .22lr...
You get more capacity in the same size gun with 9mm than with .45. But again, if shot placement is good, capacity is a moot point.

I daily carry a 9mm, and soon will switch out with .380 every so often depending on what I'm wearing and how easy it will be to conceal. I've never felt under-gunned with a 9mm.
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Old February 22, 2014, 12:54 PM   #4
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The problem with the "capacity" argument is that the vast majority of people who ever need to shoot their pistol defensively will not have time to fire more than a few rounds before they had better have the threat neutralized else it will have shot or stabbed them, wounded or not. People don't (except on extremely rare occasion) get into sustained gunfights. They get into situations where they need to fire between 1 and 5 shots.

Not to mention how much more effective .45 ACP is than 9mm if you ever have to shoot an animal larger than a poodle.

Forget the girly rounds and stick with the 230-grains.
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Old February 22, 2014, 01:16 PM   #5
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have 'em all

I'd first ask "What, specifically, are you asking?"

I have an answer: I chronographed CorBon 9x19 100g Powwerball from a KelTec P11 at 1420fps average.
That's a 3.1" barrel......
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Old February 22, 2014, 01:52 PM   #6
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I'd first ask "What, specifically, are you asking?"
I agree. Taking a little more time to clearly formulate a question and using better English will draw more specific answers. Also a quick search will turn up countless 45 vs. 9mm threads that a newcomer to the site has missed.
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Old February 22, 2014, 02:39 PM   #7
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I think the OP is seeking opinions on subcompact 9mm pistols. Interpretation of subcompact is having a barrel length of about 3-3.5 inches I believe.

My Walther P5’s have a barrel length of 3.5”. Felt recoil doesn’t feel any snappier than that of my Glock 19C (compact 4” bbl, ported barrel). No stoppages (jams) noted using Federal JHP Classic 147 grain, WWB 124 grain or WWB 115 grain.
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Old February 22, 2014, 02:43 PM   #8
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I am asking about the 9mm capabilities in a sub-compact platform. I understand shot placement is key and i am extremely comfortable with a .45 as they are the only simi-auto i have ever owned.

I have done several test on wetpack with several hp bullets out of both my fuell size 1911 and my ruger ( think its a touch under a 4'' barrel but dont remember for sure). My test show a vast differance in expantion on the bullets between the two. I understand that reduced barrel length means less velosity and thus less expantion.

I am conserned that a .45 in something like a 3'' barrel wont reliably expand unless i use a +p round and a lighter bullet. i was thinking the 9mm being a higher velosity round would produce better terminal results in the shorter barrel.

This gun will be for cc use. I am a firm believer that a .45 beats a 9mm if in the hands of a compitent shooter and both preform as designed, but if the 9mm will expand where a .45 wont with less recoil and quicker followups well 9mm wins.

The original question was if anyone has done simular test rather wetpack or gel with the short barrel 9mm or .45 in standard pressure loads not +p. I feel you need to practice with what you shoot and im not going to practice with a +p. Thats why i emfasizeon the standard pressure loads.
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Old February 22, 2014, 03:11 PM   #9
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Hi there, I don't have any numbers for you in 45 acp, but standard Winchester white box 115 grain fmj out of my ruger lc9 clocked in between 1050-1100 fps. That's on a warm day, 10 feet from muzzle at 700 ft sea level avg humidity 30-40%. I hope that helps.
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Old February 22, 2014, 03:13 PM   #10
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I don’t know whether it would make a difference in bullet expansion but the specific brand of pistol would make some difference in bullet velocity. The rifling used in Glock’s are known to give better sealing between the bullet and bore giving perhaps somewhere around 50 fps better velocity.
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Old February 22, 2014, 03:28 PM   #11
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Thanx 745sw thats the replies im looking for i have no problem with what someone chooses to carry as long as they shoot it well. My mom was a paramedic and has seen several gun shot victoms. She has tolled me about people shot with a .45 that walked to the ambulance and people shot with fmj .25 acp that were doa. A find of mine sister was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was shot 7 times with a .40 three times were in the chest. She was still able to call for help before colapsing from bloodloss. She unfortunetly died 2 weeks latter from complications from sugery. Point is shot placement but a good preforming bullet helps. That is my major consern and the reason for the post.
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Old February 22, 2014, 03:40 PM   #12
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If I were to get a compact 45, I'd probably opt for a 185 grain defensive load just to ensure expansion. It's not based on any testing, just my own comfort level.
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Old February 22, 2014, 03:48 PM   #13
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Anyone remember the story about all those escaped wild animals in Ohio a few years ago?
A black bear was downed with an officer's sidearm.
One shot from a 9mm.
There is a very thorough test, results and article on this subject we are discussing, from the Buckeye Firearms Assoc.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alter...stopping-power
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Old February 22, 2014, 04:32 PM   #14
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38 to 45

Modern-design 230g JHPs have proven expansion capability at impact velocities as low as 640fps.

Proper modern JHPs no longer demand high impact velocities to affect expansion; bullet design provides it.
Conventional wisdom is wrong
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Old February 22, 2014, 07:21 PM   #15
riverratt
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Thanx weshoot2 like i said earlier i tested my favorite hp 230gr golddot and second favorite fed hst both were perfect in my 1911, both over .70''. My shorter barrel ruger the hst was alot less about .50 average golddot was alot better with .74''. That being said it was only the very front of the bullets expanded, still alot of hollow point left. Thats why i thought they were close to there floor expantion velosity. All were tested at aprox 10 feet.
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Old February 22, 2014, 10:23 PM   #16
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I am looking for some help on the old debate between 9mm and 45. More in paticular a sub-compact.
The best I can do is hand you a few bits of information:

1) on barrel length and velocity: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
There are some actual guns tested as well. Just sort through the calibers.

2) Bone and HP ammo : https://www.google.com/search?q=bone...-US:IE-Address

Several here and good reading. I have tested standard HP ammo in carcases in the 80's but they have improved by design. Bullets get clogged and don't expand, essentially becoming a FMJ when going through bone. They more often deflect.

Here is some test results from 9mm tested at Brass fetcher that faired better than mine did then.... http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%2...one%20Test.pdf

Note the skeletal structure notations there. Gets one to thinking.
For that simple reason SD ammo choice is important. There are some more Not listed there such as Hornady critical defense.

3) This I read as well as others from Medical examiners about handgun bullet wounds : http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

IMHO he got it right about caliber.

Note on ballistics gelatin: FWIW ballistics gelatin is ok for testing. However it only reflects real capabilities of a round to a degree with important variables often left out. FE: Muscle tissue of a 20 year old athletic person is denser than 50 year old out of shape person. A 300 lb. man also has more tissue between vitals than a gangly old man.

Also as mentioned is bone. Bone shape alone can defeat or deflect rounds by design. Looking at the skeletal structure it is easy to see the capability of bone to protect the human body and most vital organs contained within it. As noted before in the coroners experience.

From a physician on wound cavities both temporary and permanent:
Quote:
A bullet has two major effects when it hits a person—the permanent cavity and the temporary cavity. The permanent cavity is the actual hole that the bullet punches out when it travels from one side of the body to the other while the temporary cavity is a shockwave that ripples out from the permanent cavity, briefly causing a much larger hole in the body then the one that is caused by the mechanical trauma of the bullet. Depending on where the bullet impacts the human body, the temporary cavity can either be a not very big deal (it is called “temporary,” right) or a really huge problem. Bullets that strike highly compliant tissues, like a bullet that travels through your biceps for instance, do most of their damage with the primary cavity whereas a bullet that lands next to a noncompliant critical structure, like the aorta (the largest artery in the body) can kill you with the temporary cavity even if the actual path of the bullet (the permanent cavity) doesn’t hit a critical structure. A shockwave that causes the aorta to rupture is just as fatal as a bullet that actually passes through this artery—you’re dead in a matter of seconds.
From here: http://leonardonoto.com/the-medical-...unshot-wounds/

What I can determine from that is that though temporary wound cavities cause harm sometimes but it doesn't on a regular or measurable basis. Permanent cavities however are dependent upon variables that are more measurable. Kinetic Energy and shot placement are variables that create larger permanent wound cavities.

Compact drawbacks:
Velocity: Not only is velocity affected but KE which is more visible by KE charts than Velocity.

Accuracy: Notably less accurate than a compact or full size.

Recoil : Noticeable heavier recoil that affects accuracy on follow-up shots.

Capacity: considerably less capacity in most models.

Insert: anything notable not mentioned.

Pros: Easily concealed, increasing surprise factor.

Easier to carry for some due to size and weight.

Make awesome backups.

Certain ones are easier to grip for people with small hands.

Insert: Anything notable not mentioned.

Conclusion: Compacts are more manageable in smaller/slower caliber. IF you carry a compact you will have to choose between recoil and accuracy in a specific model like you referenced. Shooting both should answer any questions that these responses haven't. GL.
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Old February 23, 2014, 12:34 AM   #17
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If you don't like .45 then at least go .40. Size matters.

Wreck - I like your sig line: "If you ever have to use a firearm, you don't get to pick the scenario!"

No kidding. Reminds me of yesterday. I went to the front door to let my old bird dog back in after an early morning two minutes out, and there stood a huge cow moose 25' away and the dog trying to sneak around her. She was no where around when I'd let him out. He just wanted back in the house but to the moose his circling around her looked suspiciously like wolf behavior. She whirls and dashes at him. He tries to flee but in the deep snow she runs him down and tries to kill him with both front feet as she flies over him. I see him go tumbling and hear him yelp as I dash the 10' to my pistol (geez, do I have to never let the danged thing out of my hand??), grab it and run out the door, in my underwear, cocking as I go (I keep it hammer down -- yeah, I know. )

The old guy is getting to his feet and heading for the house. Hey, at least he's up. I put the laser on that devil's chest, wondering why I don't keep the .30-06 by the door but glad I at least had 230-gr. ball in the Kimber EDC. He's old but I wasn't going to stand there and watch her stomp him without doing anything. I was thinking about where the neighbors' houses are and when she would no longer have the stand of trees behind her if she came after him, and waiting for the dash. if she took another run at him, which they usually do, I was going to find out just how far 230-gr. FMJ's go into a moose at 50 feet. A head shot on a running moose was out of the question, even with the laser, except as a last resort.

Fortunately, for whatever reason (maybe my yelling, though that has never worked before in 40 years of dealing with these knuckleheads), she just stood there and let the old guy limp back to the porch. He had a knot on his head under a spot where the hair was knocked off right down to the skin -- a glancing blow. If she'd caught him solid with that hoof it would have crushed his skull for sure. Happens to many, many dogs here. We got lucky one more time.

Wolff sent me an e-mail a couple of days ago saying my springs have been shipped. I'll feel better when I have converted my EDC to a .45 Super.

I'm going to push 230-gr. at 1000 fps. I don't have the luxury of getting to worry about expansion. Penetration is everything around here.

Edit: And no, I'm not gonna carry my Model 29 as my EDC, or get a .44 Automag, etc.
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Old February 23, 2014, 12:52 AM   #18
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Eight....wow, that was intense. Glad the pup survived! Where do you live?
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Old February 23, 2014, 02:47 AM   #19
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Alaska, where else!
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Old February 23, 2014, 10:56 PM   #20
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Eight....wow, that was intense. Glad the pup survived!
Yea me too. Hard to replace a dog in more than one way.
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Old February 24, 2014, 01:40 PM   #21
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ps

"Standard pressure" does not compute
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Old February 24, 2014, 02:43 PM   #22
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this has to be a troll
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Old February 24, 2014, 09:23 PM   #23
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A buddy of mine said something interesting to me the other day when we were talking about hand guns . We both agreed that we have no problem using a 9mm for SD/HD . How ever he did say something I'll always remember . He said a 9mm JHP may not expand , a 45 will never get smaller
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Old February 24, 2014, 09:32 PM   #24
Eight_is_enough
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Yea me too. Hard to replace a dog in more than one way.
Here he is 5 minutes after the incident, sleeping like a baby. My heart would have been pounding for three days!

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Old February 24, 2014, 09:42 PM   #25
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One more interesting study worth review. It doesn't address whether any round is really effective in a sub-compact barrel, but it does have real-world data about stopping/wounding effectivness of different rounds.

There are other studies out there, but this one seems to be more realistic than some...

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
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