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Old February 23, 2014, 11:19 PM   #26
5whiskey
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Security liability is based on 'reasonable standards of care' and 'foreseeability'; contracting unarmed security is generally seen as sufficiently proactive to forestall many of those claims.

Armed security officers offer a liability that isn't capped in any way; if they accidentally (or even purposely, correctly) employ deadly force, the company can be bankrupted by the litigation, if not the judgement.

On the other hand, employee injury suits are limited by workman's compensation liability, which is a fairly low level of judgement compared to most liability.

Essentially, dead employees are cheaper than dead non-employees, so it's cheaper to not arm them and let them take their chances.
^^^^This exactly. I couldn't have said it better... even armed security around here is only paid 11.50 an hour. Unarmed? MAYBE 9 an hour but I doubt it. Most businesses will not pay for armed security unless there is a specific and directed threat or they are a high risk business.

FWIW, I think it's smart for anyone wearing a uniform to carry SOMETHING. It could be a small pocket can of OC, an ASP baton... anything. You need to carry something whether it's sanctioned or not. Being fired for having your supervisor (who, BTW, is very likely to look the other way) find it is better than being seriously injured or killed. I would NOT recommend carrying a firearm unless you have obtained that certification, of course. While it sucks working for a company that is not willing to pay for armed security, it is their wish to have that. If you aren't okay with it, then try to find another job. This isn't downing anyone working security, it's just stating the facts as I see it.
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Old February 24, 2014, 12:17 AM   #27
ClydeFrog
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Newer weapons....

I agree with the last post. In 2014, there are many simple weapons an officer or guard(or any citizen concerned with low profile defense items) can apply quickly or in a critical incident.
Everything from stun guns/EDWs on smart-phone cases to defense pens/ink pens to lightweight concealed ASP batons.
I like the newer lightweight polymer impact weapon from Mako Defense Group. It includes a glass breaker tip for emergencies.
Taser C2 models have a longer charge than the regular LE models & run about $300.00 USD.
Pepper sprays or OCs like Zarc's Vexor(my choice) or Sabre Green aren't perfect but as noted, can be easy to carry & "street legal".

One newer weapon not yet on the US market is the cool "Dazer Laser", www.laserenergetics.com . It puts out a bright green laser distractor that disables a subject briefly. It's only available to spec ops, sworn law enforcement & public agencies in 2014, but they might R&D a good model for the general public(private security). If I can recall the company website, I'll post it here.
I read about this new weapon in the latest Rogue Warrior novel by retired SEAL officer, Richard Marcinko; www.DickMarcinko.com .
I'd add that a well made LE/professional grade white-light should be a duty gear item for any serious armed professional. New styles & upgrades are common. 5.11, Streamlight, Fenix, Surefire all have good kit that could help you.

Last edited by ClydeFrog; February 24, 2014 at 08:14 PM.
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Old February 24, 2014, 04:11 AM   #28
Angelo Demuerte
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I know multiple security officers who carry a gun while at unarmed posts, generally a pocket pistol or a g26 or g27 in a boot holster, some carry a full size duty gun in a tuckable holster. I try to encourage those who only carry on duty, to carry off duty also. Anything can happen anywhere to anyone at anytime.
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Old February 24, 2014, 08:21 AM   #29
ClydeFrog
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Concealed license....

Doing security work over the years, I'm required to do re-quals & classes a lot.
Many times, I advise new armed officers or those who are new to the industry to also get a valid concealed carry license too if they don't already have it.
My state's Div of Licensing allows the armed security training to meet the mandated requirements for a CCW. It costs another $150.00 or so but a concealed license is valid for 7/seven years.
I explain to new guards/armed security that if they want to carry a firearm with them while off duty or be in places going on/off work, a valid CCW will allow them to be covered in the event they have a lethal force incident.
If they change clothes or aren't in uniform, they can still be armed & have a valid permit/license for the gun.

Clyde
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Old February 24, 2014, 08:50 AM   #30
Dwight55
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^^^^^^ Thanks, Clyde.

Far too many folks simply don't think about things like that.

If you are in a uniform of just about any kind, . . . you are a target for some kind of sociopathic nut-job, . . . and being armed only makes you able to respond, . . . not prevent incidents.

Keep up the good work.

May God bless,
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Old February 24, 2014, 04:13 PM   #31
Angelo Demuerte
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Around here, agencies won't let you work armed unless you have a permit to carry.
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Old February 24, 2014, 04:44 PM   #32
Ambishot
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Having worked as an unarmed security guard (connected to a PD on a larger metropolitan university) for a number of years, I can relate to this story, Clyde.

In my department, self defense training through was non-existent other than an optional, one-time only, 2 hour crash course session. I took it upon myself to learn a mixed martial art, got my CCW, but even then the department policy limited us to carrying a 12" flashlight along with keys and police radio.

It was a little disconcerting when calls of armed robberies came out over the local PD channel...especially when they were happening at the 7eleven across the street.
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Old February 24, 2014, 05:40 PM   #33
ronl
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Just curious about other states, but here in VA you have to be certified by the DCJS to do armed security. The firearms classes have to be DCJS certified and the standard ones for CCW will not apply. I just finished my PPS training and it was quite involved. Had to take advanced handgun and shotgun classes to qualify. What are the standards in your respective states?
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Old February 24, 2014, 07:32 PM   #34
ClydeFrog
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Handgunlaw.us ....

www.handgunlaw.us is a great free resource. They update & modify it often.
If you have formal, documented armed security training(law, weapons qualification, etc) you may be able to get a non-resident CCW from another state & use it where you live(if the state agency or AG allows it where you live). My CCW is valid in approx 34-35 US states but the # changes often.

As for the unarmed posts, I know how un-nerving those type of felony calls can be.
In the late 1990s, I worked unarmed security at a medical center near a major university. When the PD officers rolled by they'd check to make sure we were okay/safe when we had any field interviews or vehicle stops/traffic enforcement.
Their support(the campus police were sworn & armed) were a big help.

Clyde
PS; About 2 years ago, the same university police agency had a "spree shooter" event in the lobby of a mental health clinic on the campus. One cop was seriously wounded & I think another was killed in the attack.
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Old February 24, 2014, 07:54 PM   #35
Angelo Demuerte
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Here in MN there are specific requirements such as being background checked and having a fingerprint card filed with the MN Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. And other such knick knacks and nuances.

Found under MN STAT 626.88
"The term "security guard" does not include: (i) auditors, accountants, and accounting personnel performing audits or accounting functions; (ii) employees of a firm licensed pursuant to section 326.3381 whose duties are primarily administrative or clerical in nature; (iii) unarmed security personnel; (iv) personnel temporarily employed pursuant to statute or ordinance by political subdivisions to provide protective services at social functions; (v) employees of air or rail carriers."

MN STAT 326.3361 TRAINING:
(1) for those individuals who are armed with a firearm, training in the proper use of, and the risks and dangers arising from the use of, firearms;
for those individuals who are armed with a weapon, training in the proper use of, and the risks and dangers arising from the use of, weapons other than firearms, including, but not limited to, bludgeons, nightsticks, batons, chemical weapons, and electronic incapacitation devices, and restraint or immobilization techniques...
for those individuals who are armed with a firearm or armed with a weapon, training in first aid and alternatives to the use of force, including advantages to not using force and specifically when force should not be used...
for those individuals who are armed with a firearm or armed with a weapon, training in the legal limitations on the justifiable use of force and deadly force as specified in sections 609.06 and 609.065...
preassignment or on-the-job training, or its equivalent, required before applicants may be certified as having completed training...
continuing training for license holders, qualified representatives, Minnesota managers, partners, employees, individuals armed with a firearm, and individuals armed with a weapon.


That's not the entire statute, but it is the gist of it.
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Old February 25, 2014, 11:23 AM   #36
Madcap_Magician
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In MN the armed guard requirement is met by our CCW class, which is itself nothing really to brag about in terms of depth.

Like any other CCW class you'll have people who know what they're doing and people who don't. Many guards from our local companies probably couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn and don't care that they lack that skill, but others compete seriously in USPSA or IDPA or have past military or LE experience with handguns and defensive shooting.
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Old February 25, 2014, 05:58 PM   #37
Angelo Demuerte
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That's true as far as being "armed with a firearm", but for other weapons, other training is required. I completely agree with your feeling on certain armed guards... Unfortunately some companies desperately hire anyone with a PTC just because they need armed people.
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Old February 25, 2014, 08:15 PM   #38
Mainah
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I respect anyone's decision to do an honest day's work in exchange for a check. And I respect the role of law enforcement, and that dedication even more. But personally I can't see protecting other people's stuff if all I have is a knife, pepper spray, a baton, and then workman's comp if things go south.

And I think that DT's response to this should be mandatory reading for anyone who considers a role in private security.
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Old February 27, 2014, 12:13 PM   #39
Madcap_Magician
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo Demuerte
That's true as far as being "armed with a firearm", but for other weapons, other training is required. I completely agree with your feeling on certain armed guards... Unfortunately some companies desperately hire anyone with a PTC just because they need armed people.
Yes, that's what I meant. I am not sure where in MN you are, but I've never seen an armed guard in my area with more than a firearm and one or two spare magazines. The best ones seem to be the armed guards at the local airport, who appear reasonably physically fit with good situational awareness and carry good gear. The worst seem to be the armored car couriers, many of whom are carrying decent firearms, but in crummy holsters like the Uncle Mike's "Fits all medium-sized autos" nylon things. Their situational awareness also appears to be pretty low.

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of intermediate in my area... either a firearm and nothing else or a radio and nothing else seems to be de rigeur. This may be because of the additional training, as you mention, that's required for intermediate force options.

I'd be interested in anyone else's experience in what else they've seen around.
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Old March 1, 2014, 03:54 PM   #40
Angelo Demuerte
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The areas you are more likely to encounter fully armed security officers are often places where you would encounter them inside a building, or on the perimeter of a building.
Some buildings only have security at certain times, and some only have security on certain days. There are several companies that have fully armed security officers, these companies operate a lot in the twin cities and surrounding metro.
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