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Old February 20, 2014, 08:07 PM   #1
ClydeFrog
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Armed security training; armed professionals....

I just read a Orlando Florida area news item; www.cfnews13.com about a female unarmed security officer who was attacked & raped by a homeless man in a downtown parking structure.
Her security co-worker(also unarmed) drove by & chased the felon off.
The subject was caught a short time later a few blocks away by Orlando patrol officers.

This event really bothers me on a # of levels.
My main point is in 2014, there are no unarmed security positions anymore. If you work security or loss prevention(asset protection) you need to be armed in some way. Some employers or sites may not allow or permit firearms. But you'd need some way to defend yourself. OC spray, impact weapons(ASP, PR24), EDWs(Tasers), something.
This event is tragic but it shows too how some property managers & CEOs don't want the "bad press" or "civil liability" of armed security officers.

I've worked in places with security staff who were risk adverse/inept. These people need to re-think if security or loss prevention is for them.
Violent criminals aren't going to stop just because you have "issues with guns" or "don't want to carry all that heavy stuff" .
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Old February 20, 2014, 08:23 PM   #2
DT Guy
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Here's the reality of why 'armed security' is on the decline:

Security liability is based on 'reasonable standards of care' and 'foreseeability'; contracting unarmed security is generally seen as sufficiently proactive to forestall many of those claims.

Armed security officers offer a liability that isn't capped in any way; if they accidentally (or even purposely, correctly) employ deadly force, the company can be bankrupted by the litigation, if not the judgement.

On the other hand, employee injury suits are limited by workman's compensation liability, which is a fairly low level of judgement compared to most liability.

Essentially, dead employees are cheaper than dead non-employees, so it's cheaper to not arm them and let them take their chances.

And don't get me started about magnetometer stations with UNARMED security manning them; those people are completely sacrificial, in essence; you hear them getting popped and it gives the important people a chance to flee.

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Old February 20, 2014, 08:28 PM   #3
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I couldn't agree more. I work security, and some of our posts are unarmed, due to client preference. Even in these "non-permissive" situations I am armed in some way in order to defend myself. I have no faith in the uniform intimidating anyone into not trying to harm me.

One post in particular that I work on a regular basis has a strict no weapons policy (mental patient treatment facility) and if I ever were to use a weapon to defend myself (or others) there it has been made very clear to me that I would be fired post haste. That's fine with me, I'll find another job, they don't pay me enough to die for by not being armed. The mindset of some of the security industry clients is hard to wrap my mind around. They want a security presence, but they don't want the guards to have any real "teeth". It's the classic dog and pony show a lot of places. Security guards are not allowed to have the needed tools to perform their jobs for these clients and they're treated as second class citizens by the clients and their employees, but they're the first ones called in a sticky situation and are expected to handle any situation professionally.

While I'm on my rant (lol I really do enjoy my job, believe it or not), the level of training for private armed security (at least in Ohio) is a absolute JOKE. I have many years of shooting experience, some law enforcement experience and armed security experience in another state and I found the training here to be an armed guard laughable. My "instructor" was a complete clown and the training was just a bull**** session to get money. Nobody ever fails the training, no matter how bad they deserve to fail and we were given the answers to the written test before we were given the test and told to just copy them onto the test paper. The shooting part of the training was even worse. 8 of the 10 people in my class shouldn't be allowed to ever touch a gun, let alone carry one for a job. One guy in particular, when we were shooting at 20', missed the entire PAPER 4 out of 6 times, and HE PASSED. It was scary. Most of the people in my class, if they're ever forced to pull their weapon in the line of duty, will probably get themselves or someone else killed. Any sort of real life tactics training was totally non existent in the class. Fortunately, I have a LOT of tactical training in my past, so I didn't need to learn anything from my class, I only needed the paper. lol

Now that I'm done ranting, you are correct that a LOT of the people working security REALLY need to rethink their line of work.

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Old February 20, 2014, 08:57 PM   #4
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Back in the seventies a friend worked as a mall cop. The area the mall was in got incorporated and the mall cops became the police over night. The only change for my friend was a slight change of uniform and a gun.

A co-worker was a part time security guard. He had minimal training in security and no firearm training. Depending on where he worked he was issued a gun, or not. Iirc there was little if any difference in pay.

The majority of security guards are paid minimum wage or only slightly above that. They receive little or no training.

Luckily for them and society most security positions never require more than a warm body with a cell phone.

What happened to the lady in the OP was horrible. But going from there to arming all security guards is a big jump.
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Old February 20, 2014, 09:21 PM   #5
ClydeFrog
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Clear...

To be more clear, by the term; armed, I mean weapons. Not just firearms(though firearms are not a bad idea.
One of my points in the topic, is that a non lethal weapon is better than nothing if you can not work security in a armed post(due to the site SOPs, state laws, etc).
OC spray(Zarc Vexor), Tasers, batons, etc can protect you.
I've worked in several unarmed posts. I packed my OC mark III, white-light, impact baton, etc on me. I never had any security supervisors complain or question why I had any extra gear.
Training & mindset are critical too. If you are in a uniformed position, do not think some thugs or career criminals won't assault you.
I've been on a few posts where I got a few "elevator eyes" looks while on duty.
If you're not 100% ready to deal with a threat then you're not ready to work "the road".
As noted $$$ & skill training are serious problems. Security & protective services are low paying jobs in most US areas but if you work, stay alert!
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Old February 20, 2014, 09:50 PM   #6
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DT Guy speaks the sad truth.
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Old February 21, 2014, 09:54 AM   #7
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It will change when people stop taking unarmed security jobs. As long as people are willing to work low wages as an unarmed security job, those jobs will exist.
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Old February 21, 2014, 10:10 AM   #8
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I used to work armed security in a different state. I currently work unarmed security in my hometown. While I worked armed, many of my coworkers carried an A.S.P., OC, Cuffs and a knife. I felt I was reasonably comfortable without these items as I did not want to pay for them after having to pay for all my other duty gear. I soon found that these were a neccesity where I worked and were actually used more then I ever thought a security officer would use one. I actually bought a level IIIA vest as well. When I spoke to our head office about the equipment, they told us that we were allowed to have these items because the paying client approved of what we did. Our company would not get us certified beyond being armed because if we were certified the company would then be liable for our actions. They were liable and covered for us to work armed because of the training they gave us(that we paid for). I was told, our company would look the other way, for the client, in what we were allowed to carry as it was not our companies policy. If we were, however, to get in a lawsuit over any of our other gears uses; we were on our own.

Edit: I'll add that it is strictly against policy for us as unarmed security to have any weapon on us at any time. We will be fired. I asked if I could keep pepper spray in my bag, I was told if I brought it to the workplace, I would be fired.
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Old February 21, 2014, 11:27 AM   #9
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I guess I'm lucky in that the company I work for pays a little better than your average security company, not great but better and fortunately for me it's not my only source of income.

My company is a little better than most in my area in that they allow us to carry (and be certified for) handguns, SHOTGUNS, pepper spray and baton. Obviously we don't/can't carry all of these at all posts due to client wishes, but the boss has even told us to carry defensive weapons covertly on certain high risk posts to defend ourselves. However, like most companies, if we were to use any such weapons we would be on our own, post incident. It is what it is I guess.

I actually like my job (I think you have to like the job to stay in the field for very long) and I'm glad that I have the prior training and experience to do my job safely. A lot of people in the field do not.

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Old February 21, 2014, 05:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
It will change when people stop taking unarmed security jobs. As long as people are willing to work low wages as an unarmed security job, those jobs will exist.
There is that food, clothing and housing thing. But if it's for a good cause I'm sure folks will do without.
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Old February 21, 2014, 07:25 PM   #11
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I've always said unarmed security is not security at all. Absolutely redicules
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Old February 21, 2014, 07:33 PM   #12
ClydeFrog
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Observe & report....

Part of the problem is that in the US(since forum members here are intl), many security firms/private contract companies push a "observe and report" mindset/SOP on guards.
This lulls some officers(mostly the semi-skilled or untrained) to not be ready to repel a attack or deal with a aggressive subject.

Hurricane Katrina is a great example. Many first responders & private security guards fled or went AWOL after the big storms.
I worked with a armed guard on a post in 2005 after Wilma in south Florida.
He would spend his entire security shift on his cell phone!
Could he watch for danger or fight off a trespasser? I doubt it.
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Old February 21, 2014, 07:43 PM   #13
themalicious0ne
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I have worked with many security officers who would not be ready to engage any type of physical threat. The issue relies with the companies. They will litterally hire anybody. I had orientation with a guy who did not understand english very well at all. When we took the test, I realized he did not understand that he had to answer the true/false questions after the multiple choice, I let the trainer know, they told him and he was hired.

That is why I prefered or would prefer a higher risk site. They generally send the best they have there. Unfortunately the best is very few and far between. The first armed crew I worked with at our highest risk site was amazing. One of our guys was leaving to join the military, they sent us so many replacements that were not cut out. The two we ended up getting we warned our company about. They were very immature and after high risk situations we warned them of, their responce would be that they would SHOOT them!!! It's scary out there. I ended up heading back home for a funeral and therefore took the weekend off, the two green replacements ended up getting beat up and one had to go to the hospital for minor injuries.
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Old February 21, 2014, 07:45 PM   #14
Angelo Demuerte
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Mods - please delete, posted in error. thank you.
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Old February 21, 2014, 08:09 PM   #15
Angelo Demuerte
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I have worked a shift with someone who texted his entire shift, rarely looking away from his phone while patrolling low income housing.

I have had a combative individual take a swing at me, and as I took that person to the ground, the other security officer I was working with that night froze. I had to instruct that security officer to get in between another person and the fight I was in, that security officer snapped out of it and proceeded to assist.

Addition: I have also worked with someone who purposely slowed down when we were called to respond to a situation.
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Old February 22, 2014, 01:06 AM   #16
ClydeFrog
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Responses....

I had a MOAB(mgmt of aggressive behavior) incident with a unstable subject who was claiming that he was off his medications & wanted to harm himself.

I texted my security manager to come & assist me ASAP. I used my cell text because I was right next to the male.
My mgr drove past my location & went to a gas station to fill up his car.

He later claimed he thought I was texting as a joke. I really think he got cold feet & didn't want to get into a critical incident.
FWIW; 2 uniformed deputies came on scene & escorted the male to a local psych ward for a 72hr hold. The patrol deputies didn't even search the guy! They just opened the rear door & said; "get in".

I was armed on that post & stayed calm but it was tense.
As noted some armed professionals are "green" & need a few events to level them out. When I started armed work in 2002 where I reside now, I didn't carry any non-lethal weapons. After a few incidents on duty, I got a few weapons to add on so I wouldn't need to go straight into lethal force.
"Squared away" security firms have training officers or field training to monitor new officers & gauge the conduct/techniques but many companies today just let officers/guards go off with little to no supervision at all.
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Old February 22, 2014, 06:09 PM   #17
btmj
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I don't want to get into a big argument, but...

what I said :
Quote:
It will change when people stop taking unarmed security jobs. As long as people are willing to work low wages as an unarmed security job, those jobs will exist.
what he said
Quote:
There is that food, clothing and housing thing. But if it's for a good cause I'm sure folks will do without.
There are other jobs out there, my friend. Good paying jobs, but you will have to work up a sweat, and apply a useful skill. I can't believe that working security is someone's ONLY option. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of people who WANT to work security at the current prevailing wage. Just say'n

Jim
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Old February 22, 2014, 09:50 PM   #18
papershotshells
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I agree that there are other, better paying, jobs out there. I disagree that people that work security don't apply a useful skill, at least not ALL the time.

I DO work up a sweat OFTEN, I apply several useful skills everyday (maybe I'm the exception to the rule) and working security is NOT my only option. As I stated before, I think that to work long term in security, you have to like what you do. While a lot of people in the field are just in it for a minimum wage paycheck (the same can be said of a LOT of jobs), I actually like my job, some of the people that I deal with on a daily basis are some of my favorite people in the world.

I guess what I'm saying is that not all security guards are the same. We're not all the donut eating mouth breather working unarmed at your local bank. Just like not all gun shop salesmen are knowledgeable, not all mechanics are honest and not all carpenters are skilled.

Just my $0.02 worth from quite a bit of time in the field.

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Old February 23, 2014, 12:36 AM   #19
Buzzcook
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Quote:
here are other jobs out there, my friend. Good paying jobs, but you will have to work up a sweat, and apply a useful skill. I can't believe that working security is someone's ONLY option. There doesn't seem to be a shortage of people who WANT to work security at the current prevailing wage. Just say'n
Sorry buddy, but you're just wrong there. Too many people not enough jobs. Some economists put the real unemployment rate at over 10%.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101398855
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Old February 23, 2014, 01:25 AM   #20
ClydeFrog
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Para-Professionals....

Id consider most security posts as "para-professional", a term used by my county's government human resources office for semi-skilled/licensed trades; truck driver, security officer, dispatcher, office receptionist, etc.
Some posts/jobs require more skills or training than others. A $8.00 Walmart security guard isn't going to fare very well in SW Asia without any formal training or work history.
The posted topic isn't about $$$ or economics(which is a valid point but not the main subject). It's that any guard or protective services officer(corrections, EP agent, loss prevention detective, etc) needs to have the proper training & mindset to deal with any possible threats.
No matter if you make $8.00 or $18.00 an hour, a violent thug or terrorist can still kill you!
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Old February 23, 2014, 02:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
Sorry buddy, but you're just wrong there. Too many people not enough jobs. Some economists put the real unemployment rate at over 10%.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101398855

I don't really want to rain on the cnbc parade, . . . but their "information" is always put out there to support their political agenda (read: White House / Democrat / Liberal ).

And there are jobs, . . . good jobs, . . . as was previously stated. I know that for a fact, . . . I get offers at least once every couple of weeks from head hunters I know or know of.

The jobs are working jobs, . . . not desk jobs, . . . they require skills beyond being a community organizer, or blackberry thumb jockey.

From the central Ohio standpoint, . . . I can again seriously speak that there are quite a number who have said to heck with it. They have quit looking for work, . . . their "management position" went out the door, . . . and they are not taking a working job.

They are no longer counted because they don't get unemployment, . . . and that makes the establishment look even better.

The REAL numbers of unemployment are much closer to 20% than they are to some 6% or thereabouts number. That is just to fool the masses.

But getting back on the original track, . . . taking an unarmed security job in my opinion is about as smart as asking some Cajun if he has any openings for alligator bait.

May God bless,
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Old February 23, 2014, 03:03 PM   #22
ClydeFrog
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Topic posts....

Please keep on the posted topic of security training/guns/etc.
Employment, economics, jobs, etc are starting to drift the topic off track.

Thx;
Clyde

Last edited by ClydeFrog; February 23, 2014 at 08:25 PM.
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Old February 23, 2014, 06:59 PM   #23
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Security is dangerous, period. When I worked, (unarmed) I worked in Lynn, MA which was the center of a lot of nut jobs. One of the cops inside the supermarket where I parked, came out and warned me about a guy that went past me. He was a former professional boxer and strung out on Heroin. He told me if anything happened, to call him on the cell and not approach this person at all. As a student, I took homeland security classes at the police academy in Medford; the teacher mentioned during class that before he retired, he hoped to find the person that shot and killed an unarmed security guard. He worried if he'd ever close that case and it bothered him to see someone put in a situation where they never had a chance.

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Old February 23, 2014, 08:24 PM   #24
ClydeFrog
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VINE system....

Doing security work, I sometimes have subjects issued trespass warnings by the local LE or even arrests depending on the conditions.
I started to use my local jail's VINE resource or victim's notification system.
It will send you a email, text or VM when a prison/jail releases an inmate.
I've had incidents where I ran into subjects in other places.
I had a guy jump out of a vehicle(in traffic) & start yelling at me. That was tense.
I read a forum post a few years ago on a gun board about a bail agent who was recognized by a former fugitive & his buddies that he dealt with 12 years earlier!
The thugs beat up the bounty hunter & caused severe injuries.

Clyde
PS; the recent murder of the CO dept of corrections director should wake a lot of armed professionals up too....
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Old February 23, 2014, 09:26 PM   #25
Garycw
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A security guard at a loves truck stop in Dayton Ohio was armed when he shot & killed a out of hand person.
( not a customer). It's in a less than desirable area of town. The guard was not charged by police, but is now being sued by deceased family. Not the guard company. You can find more details on the Dayton daily news or buckeye firearms websites
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