The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 18, 2014, 05:31 PM   #26
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,965
Outside lites with motion detectors
a dog that barks at strangers
a good shotgun and some fire line time with it
a phone
a plan
markj is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 05:42 PM   #27
MT 73
Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2011
Posts: 19
1) SxS .410 or 20 gauge.

2) High capacity tube feed .22 semi auto

3) 9mm semi auto carbine

4) M 1 carbine

5) Semi automatic 20 gauge shotgun
MT 73 is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 05:42 PM   #28
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,550
Forgive me for suggesting difficulties with a long gun for a beginner as the OP can predict exactly how a critical incident at home will occur.

Getting a touch silly, IMHO.

I suggest a 10 gauge lever action shotgun as you can work it one handed while riding your motorcycle around the living room.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1887

Sometimes someone asks a question at TFL that does have implications and there is a responsibility to point them out, if reasonable.

To argue that it is easy to manipulate a long arm for a beginner, manipulate a pump gun, navigate the house, run an AR or AK - because you see it happening in a way which makes the beginner a winner is not helping people.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 06:02 PM   #29
Erno86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2012
Location: Marriottsville, Maryland
Posts: 499
Even a chimp can run an AK.

Ape with AK-47...on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhxqIITtTtU
__________________
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."

--- George Orwell
Erno86 is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 06:08 PM   #30
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,604
Tactics, recoil and weight as well as the ability of the user are all concerns when choosing a home defense weapon.

But I still opt for a shotgun for the majority of people and situation.

It is possible to adjust gauge and load to accommodate smaller or weaker users. Opting for a semi instead of a pump is also an option for those not able to work a pump easily.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 06:15 PM   #31
leadcounsel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 1,735
@Glenn who said:

Quote:
Forgive me for suggesting difficulties with a long gun for a beginner as the OP can predict exactly how a critical incident at home will occur.

Getting a touch silly, IMHO.

I suggest a 10 gauge lever action shotgun as you can work it one handed while riding your motorcycle around the living room.
Nobody, including me, has 'predicted' any certain occurrence. And the only person introducing anything 'silly' is you, which is surprising since you're staff and are now purposefully derailing this conversation. Yeah, got it, pistol may be superior for certain reasons. OP also stated that the person had pistol covered. So, that's NOT the question expressly posed. You introduced an odd question, and when asked, can't explain why someone would be holding a shotgun at a door or on a person for 5 minutes...

Predicting exact scenarios requires non-human abilities. Predicting likely scenarios is quite easy given common design of houses/apartments, furniture, understanding ballistics, and physics...

Stating a person can't cover a door and simultaneously dial 911 or turn on a light is the first silly statement in this thread.
__________________
2A: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF (2008, 2009, 2010) and OND (2011). Bronze Star Medal and Meritorious Service Medal recipient. NRA Lifetime Member. I'm a lawyer, but not YOUR lawyer and I have not offered you legal advice.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 06:20 PM   #32
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,274
Quote:
Anyone interested in learning how to combat reload a shotgun should watch this video. A person can learn how to easily add shells to a shotgun using this method while engaged in a fight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7AjaNwtKww

From your link: Brian Hoffner has over 30 years of military and law enforcement experience, Brian, a Texas Master Peace Officer, is a senior firearms instructor, and defensive tactics instructor for Houston Police Department. As director of Hoffners Training Academy,...

Why would you expect a newbe to be able to do what a firearms instructor with over thirty years of experience does? Wouldn't it be easier for the newbe to get ten shots off with a semi auto that he doesn't have to reload?


Quote:
I think it's more complicated to learn to use than the other weapons mentioned, but YMMV. A substitute might be the Mini-14 in 5.56.
How is an AR or Mini-14 more complicated to learn to use than a pump shotgun? It would seem to me that it would be less complex to teach a person to take the safety off a (Mini, AR or other semi auto rifle) then pull the trigger up to thirty times than it would be to take the safety off a pump, pull the trigger, pull the slide back, rack it forward, pull the gun back into your shoulder and pull the trigger again.


This is a thread about hardware for people new to self defense with firearms. Hardware isn't as important as mindset, training or tactics but hardware shouldn't be discounted. One aspect that has been touched on in this thread is what firearm can you get the newbe to shoot enough to gain a basic level of proficiency. A hard recoiling shotgun doesn't seem like the best choice to get most people started shooting.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 07:44 PM   #33
9miller
Member
 
Join Date: January 11, 2012
Posts: 83
Personally, if I were in a home defense situation and my handgun wasn't on me ( not very much of a chance) I would grab my remington 870 magnum 20 gauge. It is loaded with #3 buck and has 4 rounds in the tube. I would highly recommend this as a #1 choice. 20 gauge is easy on the recoil so not only I but my wife could use it. It only has a 21" barrel so it is also maneuverable within a home. And 20 #3 pellets will stop a man dead, don't be subjective to everyone saying that 00 buck is a home defense round. A pump action is also best fitted for someone new to guns. Load from the bottom, pump, shoot, pump, shoot, repeat. That simple. Shotgun shells are also widely available as well.
Besides the 20gauge pump, the ar15. 30 rounds should be enough even if there is a multiple person home envision. Just my thought.
9miller is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 09:09 PM   #34
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,312
Whatever they will practice the most with!

A gun is a tool, and an unskilled user makes it nearly worthless.
raimius is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 09:18 PM   #35
Pezo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2005
Location: Macomb, Mich
Posts: 629
A simple pump 12 gauge. Loaded with manage recoil buck shot or number 4 buck. Some range time. I don't see a problem. I do like rifle sights.
Pezo is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 09:59 PM   #36
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,200
Quote:
Assume you have a non-gun friend who is interested in a long gun (not a handgun) for home defense. Assume they already have a handgun and want a long gun. Standard, garden variety, affordable long gun that this non-gun friend can be easily trained on, and then set aside to be pulled out in an emergency. Considerations are affordability, ease of use, ergonomics, etc. Again, average citizen, probably not willing to invest a few house payments in the platform and ammo and lots of classes...
1-5. 12 or 20 gauge pump action shotgun.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old February 18, 2014, 10:53 PM   #37
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,215
Quote:
A simple pump 12 gauge. Loaded with manage recoil buck shot or number 4 buck. Some range time. I don't see a problem. I do like rifle sights.
But what about your wife or teen age kids? They gonna use that shotgun?

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is online now  
Old February 18, 2014, 11:11 PM   #38
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 1,160
The "top 5"?
I'd have to say;

AK47
Benelli M1 or M3
AR-15 (preferably in 6.8SPC, but 5.56 is still ok)
FN-FAL
G-3
Wyosmith is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 03:57 AM   #39
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 190
Quote:
To argue that it is easy to manipulate a long arm for a beginner, manipulate a pump gun, navigate the house, run an AR or AK - because you see it happening in a way which makes the beginner a winner is not helping people.
It's not exactly helpful to act like everyone is an idiot if they haven't taken the same classes you have.

You may find this hard to believe, but many people can handle firearms quite well without a lot of fancy certificates

Some seem to have the attitude that if you're not SWAT certified, you shouldn't handle a gun at all.
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 09:40 AM   #40
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
...It's not exactly helpful to act like everyone is an idiot if they haven't taken the same classes you have.

You may find this hard to believe, but many people can handle firearms quite well without a lot of fancy certificates

Some seem to have the attitude that if you're not SWAT certified, you shouldn't handle a gun at all.
On the other hand, I've spent a lot of time over the last 15 years or so helping to introduce absolute beginners to shooting. Several of us, for some years, taught regular beginner classes in wingshooting at our club, and for the for about the last five years I've been with a group putting on monthly NRA Basic Handgun classes. I have the experience of introducing hundreds (perhaps a thousand) of people who have had no prior experience with guns to gun handling and shooting.

And people without some decent gun experience do not handle guns well. Guns are foreign to them, and they are awkward and clumsy with guns. The manipulations and management of guns, to be efficient and safe, requires some experience and instruction.

A lot of seasoned gun folks forget how much they've learned and how much they know compared to then they started.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 11:29 AM   #41
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,274
Frank, in your experience instructing new shooters, are there certain firearm types that make learning proper and safe use more difficult or are all types about the same? Does recoil play a factor for students new to firearms?
2damnold4this is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 11:56 AM   #42
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,538
Quote:
Frank, in your experience instructing new shooters, are there certain firearm types that make learning proper and safe use more difficult or are all types about the same? Does recoil play a factor for students new to firearms?
As to types of firearms, what's important is that the gun be within the student's physical abilities. Heavy or large handguns can be a problem for folks with small hands or limited hand strength. Guns with very stiff controls/springs can also be an issue.

With long guns, again fit can be an issue. Too long or too short a length of pull on a shotgun can make that gun unsuitable for a particular student. And students with limited upper body strength can have trouble with a 12 gauge, especially pump action.

Many of these problems go away with time, training and practice. But thing like an excessive trigger reach or too long a stock are consistent limiting factors.

Recoil is certainly an issue as well. Heavy recoil is hard to manage for beginners. It's also a turn-off and interferes with their ability to concentrate and focus on the fundamentals. Subjecting a raw beginner to a physical pounding is not a good way to start them off.

However, in our handgun class we use a step-by-step, measured and supportive approach. We do a lot of "hands-on" work with the students. The students handle a variety of revolvers and semi-autos under direct supervision, one-on-one, of an instructor. They use dummy rounds to load and unload the guns, dry fire and generally learn how things work and feel, and they get continual safety reinforcement. These initial hands-on exercises help students get familiar with handling guns and lay a foundation for safe gun handling habits.

Then in preparation for live fire, and after the "marksmanship" lecture, we work one-on-one with students on grip and stance using "blue" inert training guns. Before going to live fire with .22s, the students shoot airsoft (the quality type) in the classroom. After that the students fire 25 rounds of .22 (working one-on-one with an instructor).

Then we put out a variety of guns from 9mm to .44 Magnum so the students can get the experience of firing the larger calibers. Shooting the centerfire guns is at each student's option. Most fire them all, but some choose not to. When someone has gone through our program, it's not uncommon for her/him to be shooting 1.5 to 2.0 inch groups at seven yards with the heavy calibers. A few months ago, a petite young woman who had never fired any type of gun before out shot everyone, including her husband, with the .44 Magnum -- putting three rounds into about an inch at 7 yards. In fact, many women especially have a great time with the .44 Magnum.

The keys are, I think, plenty of hands-on one-to-one work and a progressive, step-by-step approach with each step laying a good foundation for the next.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 12:03 PM   #43
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,200
Quote:
But what about your wife or teen age kids? They gonna use that shotgun?
Yes! That's why I mentioned the option of a 20 guage. Less recoil, but still quite capable of getting the job done.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 12:37 PM   #44
Pezo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2005
Location: Macomb, Mich
Posts: 629
To elaborate. I like a handgun for basic self defense and a shotgun for a shtf or equivalent. We can substitute an AR but that gets too pricey and is more specialized and less versatile. Think slugs, buck shot and bird shot supplies and you can do a lot with one gun. That being said having a reliable higher capacity auto loader, in addition to the shotgun, that all can handle would be fine to. I have an m1 carbine that was stone reliable until I shot a box of very dirty and questionable ammo through it. I'm in the process of nearly getting it back up and running well. But it seems like over power for suburban defense. I have a tube fed auto loading 552 speed master that shoots long rifle and shorts stone reliable. That weapon loaded with yellow jackets or stingers, 15 of them on tap, would be a fine weapon for all in the house to manage.
Pezo is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 01:43 PM   #45
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 190
Quote:
And people without some decent gun experience do not handle guns well. Guns are foreign to them, and they are awkward and clumsy with guns. The manipulations and management of guns, to be efficient and safe, requires some experience and instruction.
The OP covered all of that.
It has nothing to do with the elitist attitude exhibited by many here, who continue to imply that no one can learn anything without "taking classes".

It's just the standard answer to every question, followed by a litany of what classes THEY took, as if anyone really cares, since it rarely has anything to do with the actual topic
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 02:12 PM   #46
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2damnold4this
How is an AR or Mini-14 more complicated to learn to use than a pump shotgun? It would seem to me that it would be less complex to teach a person to take the safety off a (Mini, AR or other semi auto rifle) then pull the trigger up to thirty times than it would be to take the safety off a pump, pull the trigger, pull the slide back, rack it forward, pull the gun back into your shoulder and pull the trigger again.
I agree. A pump shotgun is a great tool for home defense, but it's amazing how many people there are who think it's easier for a beginner to use than a semi-auto shotgun or carbine. A pump shotgun takes more training and practice to use, period.

Remember: WE are mostly experienced shooters, but many of our spouses are not. My wife is 5' 2". She shot my 870 once, and HATED it. She could barely handle the recoil and she kept short-stroking the action. Could she be taught to use it properly and to handle the recoil? Sure, if she actually wanted to learn. But the point is that she had NO interest in taking the time to let me teach her how to use a gun like that. However, she can shoot my AR-15 all day long and she actually enjoys shooting it.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 02:14 PM   #47
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 1,971
1. AK74 loaded w/ 30 rounds of 60gr Vmax

2. Mossberg 590A1 w/ 9 rounds of #1 buck

3. AR15 w/ lightweight expanding .223s

4. Some other semi auto .223 with light expanding bullets

5. Pistol caliber carbine
__________________
NCO of Marines, 3rd Award Expert Rifle, 236 KD Range
D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! OEF 21JUN-20SEP2011
REV. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 02:21 PM   #48
leadcounsel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2005
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 1,735
I understand the argument about recoil. However, there is reduced recoil ammo.

A heavy hitting long gun (or handgun) may not be the best thing to START someone with... but they can work up to it in short order and maintain their technique.

And perhaps the answer is for someone to 'toughen up' a little... is it "can't" or "won't." I guess you can only lead a horse to water....

It is important to have options. If someone just won't shoot something that recoils, perhaps a Ruger 10/22 would be the answer.

But like everything, a person can learn to absorb it through technique, and maybe a thicker recoil absorbing stock/pad.

If this small Asian woman can defend herself with a Mosin Nagant carbine, I'm sure that anyone can learn to use any common weapon (shotgun, AR, etc.) with little difficulty or fear of the stout recoil. The MN has a recoil harder than a 12 gauge, quite loud, and the bolts are known to be on the difficult side to operate. This woman is what, 5 feet tall, maybe 100 pounds.

Men and women much smaller than us were using harder hitting rifles for a couple centuries...

BTW, I haven't discounted anyones serious contributions to this thread, and most here have valid viewpoints.

I have trained unofficially many people, mostly women, how to shoot a variety of guns. While I don't have the training that Frank or some others may have, I do have my own experiences in seeing what works, and what doesn't, for newbies. I've never encountered anyone that has difficulty with the pump shotgun at the range. In fairness, people seem to learn the other platforms well too. They are all relatively easy to use even for beginners, in my experience, AT THE RANGE.

An interesting experiment would be to teach someone all the platforms, have them set the training aside for a year, and then take them to the range and time them to see how quickly they can make the weapon go from unloaded and safe to loaded and shots down range. Essentially, how intuitive is the weapon to load, make ready, and fire.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mosin vietnam.jpg (47.2 KB, 13 views)
__________________
2A: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." US Army Combat Veteran and Paratrooper: OIF (2008, 2009, 2010) and OND (2011). Bronze Star Medal and Meritorious Service Medal recipient. NRA Lifetime Member. I'm a lawyer, but not YOUR lawyer and I have not offered you legal advice.

Last edited by leadcounsel; February 19, 2014 at 02:35 PM.
leadcounsel is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 02:29 PM   #49
kinoons
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2008
Location: las vegas, NV
Posts: 385
I'm the only one to recommend the PS90? Cost aside, I believe it to be a perfect home defense firearm. It can be operated comfortably with one hand (once it is charged), is relatively lightweight (and the weight is in the back), is fully ambidextrous, has up to 50 rounds on tap, and is very compact. While I hope I never need to do so, my PS90 is my overwhelming choice for defending my home.
kinoons is offline  
Old February 19, 2014, 02:32 PM   #50
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western WA
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadcounsel
If this small Asian woman can defend herself with a Mosin Nagant carbine, I'm sure that anyone can learn to use any common weapon (shotgun, AR, etc.) with little difficulty or fear of the stout recoil. This woman is what, 5 feet tall, maybe 100 pounds.

Men and women much smaller than us were using harder hitting rifles for a couple centuries...
You're completely right; most people can learn to use almost any kind of weapon if they're willing to learn. But, in my wife's case, my 870 is difficult enough for her to shoot that she has no interest in learning; she'd rather just use my AR-15 which is much easier for her.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13844 seconds with 8 queries