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Old February 11, 2014, 04:03 PM   #1
geetarman
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Trouble can come quickly.

I just ran across this on the web this morning. A Chicago sheriff sergeant is off duty and in plain clothes and has stopped to get gas at a Citgo station.

The officer appears to be wearing a jacket with an American flag on it and it may be part of his uniform.

This occurred around 10 pm last night.

He has the pump nozzle in his hand and he is approached by thug #1 who is holding a handgun. Officer drops nozzle and turns slightly to the right. Perhaps to shield his CCW. Thug #2 and thug #3 approach and thug #3 goes to the passenger side door of the vehicle. The officer is obviously having some sort of dialog with thug #1 and is using his left hand to rummage around in his pockets. It looks like he hands thug #1 some bills and loose change and then the officer pulls his gun and shoots thug #1 point blank in the head.

Officer seeks cover of part of the station structure while thug #2 and #3 beat feet. Thug #1 is trying to move and officer covers him with his gun and kicks the gun away. Officer looks like he is going to car to retrieve phone when the video ends.

It looks like only one shot was fired and thug #1 did die.

Anyone think the officer did anything wrong? I am thunderstruck how fast this went down.

Here is a link.

Looking at this quite a few more times, it looks like he was wearing his duty weapon and not a backup and it looks like his jacket was keeping him from printing and it also looks like that was the reason for turning to keep the gun from showing while he gained access to the weapon and it also looks like he fired at least once or twice at thug #2 and #3.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...0,623345.story
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Old February 11, 2014, 04:07 PM   #2
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I wouldn't have put the hand in the pocket, but otherwise he did OK
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Old February 11, 2014, 04:18 PM   #3
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Im thunderstruck that anyone reading this type of forum could be "thunderstruck" as to the speed at which this type of thing happens
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Old February 11, 2014, 04:20 PM   #4
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^^^^^^ Perhaps I've just lived a sheltered life.
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Old February 11, 2014, 04:44 PM   #5
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Good. Nothing wrong with that

Those of us that have been students (and sometimes practitioners) of the defensive arts will recognize patterns in this attack that are pretty common

Fast paced... Mtpl assailants... Close range begining, opening up distance QUICKLY once shots are fired

The sad fact is that because this was an off-duty LEO it will not be counted as a CCW defensive shooting. The fact the attackers had NO KNOWLEDGE he was a LEO is pertinent.

In their eyes he was just another potential victim could have been you, could have been me

To the officer involved i say... WELL DONE.
Good use of presumed compliance to distract threat #1
Great choice of central nervous system shot placement. The optimum distance to take a head shot is muzzle contact.

Good movement after the shot. Get OFF the X

All in all a great job
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Old February 11, 2014, 04:53 PM   #6
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On another thread here, guys are posting that LE statistics are not relevant to CCW shootings

This was statistically a LE shooting!!! Tell me how it was different from what might happen to you or me tonight?
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Old February 11, 2014, 05:20 PM   #7
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Yeah, it normally happens that quick, and the long-time average is less than 3 shots, less than 3 seconds, less than 3 yards. (the rule of 3-3-3.)

I've been a cop for 34 years, and when I talk about officer-involved shootings, most people can't believe how fast things go sideways. I've been involved in two officer-involved shootings and in the second one, it was over before I cleared leather. Luckily, no one was seriously hurt in either one.
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Anyone think the officer did anything wrong? I am thunderstruck how fast this went down.
I don't know, I wasn't there, and I haven't read the officer's report. If there is one thing I've learned in 34 years of police work is that invariably the news media gets the first reports wrong, wrong, wrong.
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Old February 11, 2014, 05:37 PM   #8
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Things like this are generally over before anyone knew they were happening.

The L/E kept his cool and waited for the right opportunity to take action, and when he did he acted quickly, put down the man with the exposed weapon. Then took cover and observed scene.

It's just to damn bad he could not have taken out the two outer actors. Oh-well odds are they will screw up again, and give someone the chance to finish what the officer started.

Last edited by old bear; February 11, 2014 at 06:38 PM.
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Old February 11, 2014, 06:11 PM   #9
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Good, one more worthless piece of crap out of this world.

When this sort of thing happens, I always remember this speech.

http://youtu.be/8OKMN28AhBQ
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Old February 11, 2014, 06:41 PM   #10
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Car wrecks come quickly to.

So yes, trouble, especially if your head is up your, uh thing-a-ma-jig, can just blindside you.

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Old February 11, 2014, 07:05 PM   #11
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Some years ago, a man went down a street in (IIRC) NYC with a knife, stabbing people in the lower back at random. No one cried out, or most were not even aware they had been stabbed, the blow was so sudden and the shock so great.

So when someone says that he carries a gun and will always be able to defend himself because he practices this or that draw, or uses this or that holster, or carries this or that gun, I beg to differ. Under some conditions that might be true. But under others, it doesn't matter what gun you carry or none. or what training you have or none, or what on-line guru you follow or none. You are dead.

Jim
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Old February 11, 2014, 07:21 PM   #12
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Old February 11, 2014, 07:46 PM   #13
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When I travel, I look where I am going. I get gas at well lighted places and I try to be aware of what is around me.

I see people just hanging around, I don't stop. I move on down the road.

What struck me about this was the place WAS well lighted. The cameras did not show a bunch of people milling around and the officer, of all people, was obviously ready to respond quickly.

I applaud him and those people who perform this dangerous job day in and day out.

MOST of us in the general population, just do not deal in this kind of reality everyday. I really think that MOST of us are WOEFULLY unprepared for what can happen when things go bad.

I seldom carry a gun on me. I often have one in my truck. Fat lot of good that would have done me should I have been in that situation. Thug #3 would have likely used my gun on me.

I work at shooting better and reading the situation and the people around me.

It is painfully clear that I am a minnow in a sea of sharks. I hope I have learned from your responses today some things to do and some things to avoid.

As I posted earlier, I must have led a pretty sheltered life in a fairly small town in Kentucky.

Thanks for your responses. I read ALL of them.
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Old February 11, 2014, 08:48 PM   #14
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MOST of us in the general population, just do not deal in this kind of reality everyday
There are 313 million citizens in the US and 700,000 police. The general population [is] dealing with/ falling victim to this kind of violence everyday and more like every 15 minutes. I applaud this officer for making the quick decision to fight for his life but this could have been anyone and it was only by the slimmest chance- it was a off duty LEO. The punks certainly didnt expect it to be a LEO or someone armed.
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:29 PM   #15
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:34 PM   #16
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MOST of us in the general population, just do not deal in this kind of reality everyday
They don't in Chicago, general population is not allowed to protect themselves. The thugs were not expecting armed victim.

Doug
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:40 PM   #17
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Trouble can come quickly

When I mention to folks that stopping for fuel at night invites trouble, they call me crazy.

I like to fill up between 7 and 7:30 am. Not many lowlifes up and at it that early.
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:49 PM   #18
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skoro,

It's nice that you live far enough south that 7 am is full light -- and that your life is ordered enough that you always have a choice to fill up in daylight. Plenty of folks around here go to work in the dark and come home in the dark, at least in winter.

Avoidance is best when possible. Isn't always possible, as this event showed. Good job to the man involved, and I hope he weathers the aftermath in good shape.

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Old February 11, 2014, 09:52 PM   #19
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Hahaha. I completely overlooked the fact it was in the "gunsafe" Obama city of Chicago.
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Old February 11, 2014, 11:09 PM   #20
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Yeah, it normally happens that quick, and the long-time average is less than 3 shots, less than 3 seconds, less than 3 yards. (the rule of 3-3-3.)
I hate to burst your bubble but those are the fights the cops lost. Taken from FBI stats on officers killed.

The officer did fine.
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Old February 12, 2014, 12:00 AM   #21
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I hate the oft cited 3-3-3 stat.

Even if taken at face value, it means that somebody only fired 1 shot but somebody else fired 5. Just to get to the avg of 3. Same for distance

Its just a bogus thought process. You cannot predict what your encounter will look like. If you had a cystal ball you would avoid the entire situation

You might be at mzl contact distance... You might be at 25 yards shooting to protect a loved one across a parking lot (a GOOD friend of mine almost had to do just that at a bank recently)... You might have to shoot someone holding your child.

To train for 3-3-3 just sets you up for failure in a harder situation. Train like your life and the lives of your loved ones hangs in the balance... It just might
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Old February 12, 2014, 12:26 AM   #22
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A couple of things I see--in no particular order:

1. Keep your car doors locked except when they need to be open. The fact that the officer's passenger door was unlocked allowed an accomplice to access his vehicle. That turned out to be relatively harmless in this case, but could have allowed the accomplice to access a firearm or other weapon in the vehicle, or to threaten/rob/injure a passenger more easily.

2. Try not to limit your scope of observation unnecessarily. The officer was facing the pump with his back to the street. It never hurts to get a little advance notice when trouble might be approaching.

3. It's a good thing only one of the 3 appeared to have been armed. I'm not sure things could have turned out so well had one or more of the other 2 also had a gun.
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Old February 12, 2014, 10:51 AM   #23
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I wouldn't have put the hand in the pocket,
Putting the hand in the pocket was a distraction to the bandit, leading the bandit to believe the victim was complying instead of preparing to fight back.

Any distraction to the bandit is an advantage for the victim.

You can act faster then you can re-act. Distracting the bandit by putting the hand in the pocket and pulling out "bills" allowed the victim to act before the bandit could re-act.

Therefore: Victim Wins.
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Old February 12, 2014, 11:18 AM   #24
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He won. That's all that matters, for him. But it's not all that matters for us, because sometimes luck happens too. Many people win encounters with criminals simply because of good luck. Not because they planned well or did good things, but simply because they were lucky. When you're looking for strategies and techniques to imitate, it is best to look for the ones that do not rely entirely on good luck. It's also best to look for strategies that are available to you personally, as opposed to ones that might be available to someone else who has different physical abilities or a different situation than you are likely to find yourself in. So the fact that he won is all that matters to him, but it's still okay for us to look at what he did and carefully consider whether what he did was the "best of all possible options," and also whether what he did is something we ourselves could realistically do.

That said, he did very very well. He definitely found a way to solve the problem and he had the physical skills he needed in order to carry out his plan. Good for him!

Was it perfect, in some absolute sense? No, of course not. As John points out, keeping car doors locked might have helped tilt the odds even more in his favor. Keeping your focus wide, paying attention to the world -- that might have helped, too. It is always better when you see an attack coming than it is if you get blindsided and ambushed.

Was it the only way to solve this particular problem? Nope, not that either. But in the heat of the moment, he chose a response that worked for him and he carried it off successfully. That is the name of the game after all! But there are other things that might have worked, too. For example, I was surprised that he threw down an excellent weapon that was already in his hand, in order to stall for time and fish through his pocket so he could then access his firearm. A face full of gasoline, coming out of the pump, makes an excellent distraction all on its own, and would likely have blinded and thus disabled at least one of the attackers – the one with the gun, ideally – long enough for him to get his own gun out. He could very easily have used the pump handle that was in his hand to buy the same amount of time, or even more time. So there's more than one way to skin that cat.

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Old February 12, 2014, 09:03 PM   #25
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To train for 3-3-3 just sets you up for failure in a harder situation.
3/3/3 is simply a statistical average which will have merit to a certain degree but does not necessarily mean that every gunfight will fall within that average. Training 3/3/3 is just a drill and hopefully one of many. Even if a person only trains 3/3/3, it does not mean that they are incapable to acting outside that routine, we are adaptable beings after all.
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