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Old February 24, 2014, 07:00 AM   #126
Sparks1957
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The only truly damning thing, if true, is the reassembly issue. If the problem really does not always show up immediately, but rather an unpredictable number of rounds in the future, that is a major risk.
I'm confused. How would a reassembly issue appear at some point in the future if it didn't already exist in the beginning?

One of the first things I do when a buy a new gun is to disassemble, clean, and lube it. I also want to know how it works. The R51 will be no different, and honestly it looks pretty easy to manage compared to, say, a 1911.
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Old February 24, 2014, 07:52 AM   #127
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...The R51 will be no different, and honestly it looks pretty easy to manage compared to, say, a 1911.
Is a 1911 supposed be hard to manage? Why am I hearing about this now? The way I look at it, the less handing I do with a gun the less fun I'm having!

So far nothing has lessened my interest in the R51. After following this discussion, I might be even more interested than ever.
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Old February 24, 2014, 08:07 AM   #128
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Is a 1911 supposed be hard to manage?
That's my point. Anyone with some understanding of how guns work and a manual shouldn't have issues.
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Old February 24, 2014, 10:31 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Sparks1957
How would a reassembly issue appear at some point in the future if it didn't already exist in the beginning?
The lug on the slide lock fits under a return spring, which presses downward when the slide lock is pushed up to lock the slide open.

If the lug on the slide lock is assembled incorrectly above the return spring, there would be nothing to prevent the slide lock from moving upward. In that case, the slide lock might bounce upward during recoil, locking the slide open on a sporadic and inconsistent basis. Of course, this explanation assumes that an incorrectly assembled slide lock would not be positioned so high that it would always lock the slide open.
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Old February 24, 2014, 10:37 AM   #130
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A simple function check after reassembly would make the problem apparent, however. I still don't see how a problem could arise spontaneously after firing some number of rounds.

Watch the video by Mann, it is obvious how one can tell if they got it right.
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Old February 24, 2014, 11:15 AM   #131
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Sparks, That is sure right, just watch Richard Mann's posts & video on ramworks.net & you will never watch Nick Leghorn on TTAG again. Leghorn sure screwed it up.
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Old February 24, 2014, 11:24 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Sparks1957
A simple function check after reassembly would make the problem apparent, however. I still don't see how a problem could arise spontaneously after firing some number of rounds.
A function check would reveal incorrect assembly, but you would have to be aware of the potential reassembly problem to know what function to check.

The potential would inherently exist with incorrect assembly, but would only occur haphazardly. Without the return spring to hold it down, the slide lock could potentially move up at any time, but it would only be by chance that recoil would actually move the slide lock up to lock the slide back on any given firing cycle.
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Old February 24, 2014, 11:40 AM   #133
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A function check would reveal incorrect assembly, but you would have to be aware of the potential reassembly problem to know what function to check.
I can't disagree with that, but one would think someone would do a little homework or at least have a manual in hand before dismantling one of these.
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Old February 24, 2014, 01:47 PM   #134
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The R51 has the same issue for me as the Kahr polymer pistols...that darn little exposed spring. It appears, from what I'm seeing, that the two pistols use a small spring to hold the slide stop down and if incorrectly assembled can cause function issues. I know in the Kahr it DOES cause issues with assembly, and the spring can be bent or become "untuned" rather easily and cause permanent function issues even if correctly assembled until the spring is replaced.

If I had to go by prior experience with Kahrs I have owned, this feature is the negative point in the R51.
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Old February 24, 2014, 03:43 PM   #135
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The R51 has the same issue for me as the Kahr polymer pistols...that darn little exposed spring.
You know, the looks of that little exposed spring at the slide stop on Kahr pistols has always bothered me, but functionally, I've never found it to be an issue at all. It seems well secured, and I've never had it interfere with disassembly/reassembly.
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Old February 24, 2014, 05:53 PM   #136
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Either way, nothing changes the fact that this guy was full of it. He deliberately mishandled the pistol in order to get slide bite, and the video makes that painfully obvious. He's a liar, plain and simple. I've shot enough similar low-bore-axis designs to know how one of these guns should fit in your hand, and he very deliberately screwed it up.
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Old February 24, 2014, 06:11 PM   #137
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He deliberately mishandled the pistol in order to get slide bite, and the video makes that painfully obvious.
Ehhhh, I have a really hard time believing that. What would be the point???
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Old February 24, 2014, 06:14 PM   #138
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Why? Because he wanted something to complain about. There's simply no way that pistol could give you slide bite if you shoot it properly.

As for the reassembly issue, it's a unique problem: most assembly issues will show up immediately in a function test. However, this reassembly issue can result in parts shifting after reassembly, so that while it passes all initial function tests it will fail at an undetermined point later.
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Old February 24, 2014, 06:45 PM   #139
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I just watched the video. It looks like a guy with big hands shooting a smallish gun, not mishandling.
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Old February 24, 2014, 06:48 PM   #140
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However, this reassembly issue can result in parts shifting after reassembly
Can you explain what you mean by that?
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Old February 24, 2014, 07:48 PM   #141
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Can you explain what you mean by that?
If that spring is not properly positioned during reassembly, it won't get captured but will still provide appropriate pressure on the slide release. So it will work and pass function tests. However, because it's not properly retained, it can shift inside the action during use and cause the gun to jam up.
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Old February 24, 2014, 08:02 PM   #142
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Ahh, now I understand what you are talking about. Have you had one in your hands? You seem to know a lot about it. Or is it all conjecture?
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Old February 24, 2014, 09:54 PM   #143
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Can't you just lift the slide catch with your thumb while pulling the slide back to check for tension? Yes, if the slide release was an internal design (like older Euro guns) this issue wouldn't raise its head unless during recoil recovery or if you racked the gun upside down.

If there's anything to complain about, it's that you have to wrap your hand around the slide while its under (low, but still significant) spring tension to slide the pin out; there's no manual safety hook to hold the slide for you during the maneuver like on a 1911 or Hi Power. That's a manual of arms 'deficiency' I can call legit; the gun not working because your function check sucks is not .

At least there's no way Jet Li will rip the slide off your gun when you draw down on him (he'll just feed you the gun, instead ). Which raises another point; I'd like to see just how much A) muzzle force, and B) distance is required to push the gun out of battery and disable it. Just like most recoil designs, muzzle contact can knock them out of battery and keep them from firing, but I'm curious how the combination of large slide face, light return spring, fixed barrel, and hesitation lock combine to affect reliability in such an unfortunate scenario. Taking up much of the slide's 'running start' with a .1" or so initial slide travel would probably not disable the trigger, but it would remove the source of momentum needed to cycle the gun (I guess that's better than it not firing at all, though )

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Old February 24, 2014, 10:50 PM   #144
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Ahh, now I understand what you are talking about. Have you had one in your hands? You seem to know a lot about it. Or is it all conjecture?
No, but I have read up and I own similarly-shaped guns. I have a number of 9x18 direct blowback pistols that are of similar size and shape. I saw how the guy is handling it, and I realized he's not doing it right.
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Old February 25, 2014, 09:27 AM   #145
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I just watched the video. It looks like a guy with big hands shooting a smallish gun, not mishandling.
That's what I thought too.

Watching him shoot that gun got me wondering whether he should have been using a one-handed grip rather than trying to shoot it two-handed. When I practice with my LC9, I mostly practice shooting it one handed. It's a small gun and trying to use a two handed grip doesn't seem to make much sense. If I ever had to actually use my LC9, the distance would be short, and I doubt I'd have time to use a two handed grip anyway. Perhaps these smaller guns are meant to be shot one handed.
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Old February 25, 2014, 10:04 AM   #146
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Well, the author gives the various summary ratings for his categories as

4
4
1
1
4
1

Which averages 2.5, yet his overall rating is 2.0..... Now, even if he has to round up or down, he should have rounded up to 3, given that the last category of customization (lack of holsters, etc.), is of course going to be non-existent before something is released. In fact, that's such a bogus idea, that the category should be eliminated completely at this point.... His own remaining ratings of 4, 4, 1, 1, 4 - those average 2.8 out of 5. Or 3 out of 5, to round up.

That's just math, before getting into criticisms of the base ratings.... How can the reliability be 4, not 5, if it "runs perfectly every time"? Yeah, I get that he's docking it 1 star for the possibility of putting it together wrong, but that's a double whammy, because it already took a hit of one star for that maintenance issue. So either make this one a 5, or round up the other to two (at least).

Then, you've got the other perhaps unduly-low rating of "Ergonomic Firing" - yeah it jumps in the hand, says him, but also says him: "The R51′s low bore axis and lighter slide did indeed reduce felt recoil and allowed me to get on target quickly". Now if that's the case, how can it possible get a 1 out of 5 on "ergonomic firing" - it's got to be at least a 2 or 3. Let's call it 2.5.

So if we eliminate the bogus sixth category of "customizations" which are always non-existent on a new gun, raise the reliability to 5, and raise the ergonomic firing to 2.5, we get a fairer average of 3.3 out of 5, not 2.0.

(4 + 4 + 1 + 2.5 + 5) / 5 = 3.3.

That's a fairer rating to be derived from his own statements about the gun and eliminating the bogus category.

I think he may have an agenda for a competitor.
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Old February 25, 2014, 10:09 AM   #147
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No, but I have read up and I own similarly-shaped guns. I have a number of 9x18 direct blowback pistols that are of similar size and shape
Yes, so do I. I still think people are making mountains out of molehills around that spring.
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Old February 25, 2014, 01:57 PM   #148
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Ugly gun. And i own a glock. Lol
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Old February 25, 2014, 04:48 PM   #149
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Just goes to show the truth of the old saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

I think it looks really cool, and even pretty
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Old February 25, 2014, 06:11 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Sparks1957
I still think people are making mountains out of molehills around that spring.
I agree. OTOH, the number of 1911s with 'idiot marks' suggests that more than a few people have difficulty with seemingly simple and straightforward reassembly tasks.
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