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Old February 11, 2014, 08:39 AM   #1
Uncle Malice
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Looks like the R51 is a bust. Can't say this surprises me.

The Truth About Guns posted an in depth review of the new Remignton R51 that everyone has been oogling over since SHOT Show.

Seems like a bust to me... but it's about what I was expecting. I couldn't understand why everyone else was getting all starry eyed about it.

Here's the article
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:01 AM   #2
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One reviewer's opinion hardly makes a product a bust.

I'll wait until the R51 is out in the wild and I hear reports from real owners and users before I pass judgement.

That said, I will not be a beta-tester.

Also, several of the reviewer's "cons" were highly subjective. The ergonomics did not suit him. That I understand. But all people are different. I look at that design and don't possibly see how I would get slide bite. The lack of a positive and tactile reset is a bit of a bummer, but many, many people used M&P pistols (and were happy with them) for years before S&W redesigned the trigger to make the reset more positive.

Also, about the complaints about the difficulty of field-stripping, and that improperly re-assembling the pistol will cause failures are easily remedied. Just reassemble the pistol correctly. I can think of plenty of popular firearms that can be tricky to fully field strip and re-assemble, but which are still reliable and well-made firearms (Ruger MK III, 1911s with FLGRs, Mossberg 500). The Pedersen system is different, and it no doubt takes some getting used to.

I'm not being an apologist for this design, though. As I said before, I won't be buying one in the short term. Not until the design proves itself in the eyes of users. After that - maybe. It looks like an intriguing pistol with a neat feature set.


.

Last edited by Fishbed77; February 11, 2014 at 09:23 AM.
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:10 AM   #3
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Wow, I was planning on purchasing one of these R51's, now I will see what happens if they take off. I will say that my old Model 51's are nothing but problems for me and I would never carry one. It also leaves red marks on the web of my hand and it is only a .380.
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:11 AM   #4
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Quote:
One reviewer's opinion hardly makes a product a bust.
Agreed, especially since the whole review starts off with some sour grapes about not being invited to Remington's "all-expenses-paid junket in the desert to test Stage One guns", as he put it. Looks like his biggest gripes are "small gun hurts my hand" and "I don't know how to put it together properly".
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:12 AM   #5
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Quote:
One reviewer's opinion hardly makes a product a bust.
I agree. He just confirmed the thoughts I had on the initial release. Not that I really had any interest in it in the first place.
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:20 AM   #6
Fishbed77
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Quote:
Agreed, especially since the whole review starts off with some sour grapes about not being invited to Remington's "all-expenses-paid junket in the desert to test Stage One guns", as he put it.
I got the same impression.

There were definitely some sour grapes going into that review.
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Old February 11, 2014, 10:23 AM   #7
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I like the idea of remington rejoining the handgun race

I wasn't super impressed by the new offering, but am willing to give it a try if it proves to be a solid offering.
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Old February 11, 2014, 10:34 AM   #8
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It's a good idea not to buy brand new stuff, wait til it's proven. This includes new guns, cars etc. Wait a year or so til the bugs are hopefully worked out.
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Old February 11, 2014, 10:45 AM   #9
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It's surprisingly large for just being a single stack 9mm and it's just plain hideously ugly.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...51-comparison/
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Old February 11, 2014, 10:48 AM   #10
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It'll sell just on its looks.
Think of how many guns are bought just for collection purposes.
The retro idea has been successful in lots of things.
It might be even better if it would look even more like the original.
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Old February 11, 2014, 11:18 AM   #11
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I can't help but wonder if the slide bite issue could be remedied by using the thumbs-down grip familiar to most DA revolver and Walther PP/PPK shooters. The shooter in the TTAG video appears to have his thumbs forward.

That said, the ease with which the slide stop can be incorrectly inserted could be some seriously bad juju. I wonder if a redesign is incipient. Many other guns that require slide-stop removal and reinsertion for field-stripping do NOT have this problem.

I'll reserve judgment on the trigger reset until I get my hands on one. I've concluded that I'm largely indifferent to triggers with indistinct and/or long resets; I attribute this to shooting DA revolvers a lot.
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Old February 11, 2014, 11:27 AM   #12
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Wait a minute. A guy on the internet didn't like something? Stop the presses!

Yea I read it too. It's still cheap enough that I'll probably pick one up just to play with.
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Old February 11, 2014, 11:28 AM   #13
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good point pete, i had the ffirst model of the sccy cpx-1, it was so astonishingly horrid, but nowadays i read nothing but good reviews on the updated version, almost tempted to try it again, it was a really accuracte little gat

i suggest waitng awhile and heading to the range to try the r51 for yourself before assuming its a total dog(which it probably is)
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Old February 11, 2014, 11:40 AM   #14
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I am surprised at it's size, thought it was a smaller pistol than it is.
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Old February 11, 2014, 11:54 AM   #15
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Biases or not, the reviewer brought up some good points of consideration.
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Old February 11, 2014, 01:25 PM   #16
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So, Leghorn makes this complaint early on:

Quote:
the Remington R51 is painful to shoot, even with light loads.
Then, further on, he says:

Quote:
There was another pleasant surprise: the R51 turned typically painful +P rounds into pussycats.
Well, which is it, Nick?

If someone considers field-stripping a Glock to be an ordeal, I don't know what to tell him. I have an old Model 51. Yes, it's more complex, but anyone who can be bothered to read a manual (it is a weapon) can do it.

Farago and his buddies should have stuck to writing about cars.
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Old February 11, 2014, 01:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
It's surprisingly large for just being a single stack 9mm and it's just plain hideously ugly.
LOL!! It even makes a Glock look...well...better!!
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Old February 11, 2014, 02:11 PM   #18
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Is there any gun that TTAG likes? One almost wonders if they are part of the Brady campaign.

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Old February 11, 2014, 02:22 PM   #19
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Internal hammer + no manual thumb safety = heap big law suits.
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Old February 11, 2014, 02:32 PM   #20
Fishbed77
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Quote:
Internal hammer + no manual thumb safety = heap big law suits.
Like all the law suits for (so-called) hammerless revolvers?

The R51 has a manual safety in the form of its grip safety. It also has a firing pin block.
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Old February 11, 2014, 02:37 PM   #21
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It might make the review more believable if the writer knew how the gun works. Not only does he not know how the R51 functions, but he doesn't know how the Luger works.

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Old February 11, 2014, 03:15 PM   #22
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Okay, some thoughts on points raised ...

Some pistols aren't as easily field-stripped and reassembled as others. Granted. Owner/user beware and act accordingly.

Some 'low slide profile' pistols can subject an occasional shooter with fleshy hands to slide-bite. At least this one doesn't have an abbreviated frame tang.

Magazine insertion & seating? Learn how it needs to be done with any particular pistol and deal with it. At least it doesn't have a butt/heel mag release.

Trigger recovery is often a different thing than a mechanical trigger reset point. Letting the trigger fully recover will allow for mechanical reset. DA revolver shooters have dealt with this for decades. So have shooters of a variety of TDA & DAO pistols. A number of TDA/DAO pistols have a softer, less discernible mechanical reset point than some others. Glock shooters often seem to think every pistol must have the same distinctive connector slap & trigger bar movement that accompanies the reset point. Learn to properly & effectively run the trigger if you're going to own the gun. Not all "trigger slappers" have slow split times or suffer degraded accuracy.

I've been around the block a time or two when it comes to some guns, as a firearms instructor and an armorer for some different brands/models. I prefer an objective, more concise & unbiased delivery of an evaluation. It's a gun, a machine, not a sports team.

That said, I've also become reluctant to be a Beta Tester anymore, so I'll also wait and see how things go once the guns reach the hands of cops and private owners in the real world.

I've already heard one of the other instructors say that he was quoted a LE price from some distributor as being $299, so I've little doubt that once the guns start shipping, I'll probably see 1 or 2 of them appear on our range in the hands of eager new owners.

I'd be more interested if Remington decides to make an effort to sell these in the LE market as secondary & off-duty weapons, and puts together an armorer class to try and attract LE armorers (and agencies to authorize their use). I'd like to see inside one with a little more detail, and see what sort of support the company might offer at the armorer level.

Let's see what happens.
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Old February 11, 2014, 03:55 PM   #23
Fishbed77
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Glock shooters often seem to think every pistol must have the same distinctive connector slap & trigger bar movement that accompanies the reset point.
fastbolt, I agree 100%.
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Old February 11, 2014, 04:30 PM   #24
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Quote:
Not only does he not know how the R51 functions, but he doesn't know how the Luger works.
I noticed that bit, too. The guns are really nothing alike.

Well, OK, there are some similarities. Both shoot the 9mm cartridge, both feed from a magazine, and both have fixed barrels. So, they're just like the P7 or the Steyr GB. Except they're not. It's like claiming the R51 is a VP70 clone because it's striker-fired.

Yeesh. Everybody's an expert on the internet.
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Old February 11, 2014, 04:55 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Well, OK, there are some similarities [between the Luger and R51]. Both shoot the 9mm cartridge, both feed from a magazine, and both have fixed barrels.
Except that the Luger (P08 Parabellum) doesn't have a fixed barrel, at least not fixed relative to the frame. The barrel and receiver move together. On firing, they move about 1/4" rearward, the toggle knobs strike ramps in the frame, the toggle linkage pivots upwards, and the breech unlocks.

Granted, a number of small-caliber postwar Luger lookalikes from Stoeger and Erma operate as pure blowbacks, and have truly fixed barrels- but then they aren't delayed-blowback either.

As I wrote in a past thread about the R51, AFAIK the only reasonably commonplace mass-produced pistols with operation somewhat similar to the Remingtons are the Benelli B-series (e.g. B76, B80). However, the Benelli breechblock unlocks by means of a lever, whereas (as I understand it...) the Remington breechblock unlocks using cams in the slide.
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Last edited by carguychris; February 11, 2014 at 04:57 PM. Reason: minor reword...
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