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Old February 15, 2014, 08:33 PM   #101
boondocker385
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interesting discussion. I have been in a crowd where a cop had is pistol in sul... then the screaming and running started....
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Old February 16, 2014, 11:48 AM   #102
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I watched the Gomez video. I don't agree with much that he is saying. The muzzle up near the face is in my opinion, not very bright. His forearms partially block his vision below and ahead of him. It would seem to be a good way to get the pistol to whack him in the face from either bumping into someone or something.
I would say go with what is comfortable and engage the brain before engaging the trigger.
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Old February 16, 2014, 12:35 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derbel McDillet
with bent elbows you don't have the strength to effectively resist.
With bent elbows you have much more strength than if your arms were fully extended, it gives you leverage and allows you to explode with force. Years of football taught me this applies to both arms and legs.

As far as SUL, I can think of far more disadvantages than advantages for that position, all which have been pointed out already in this thread. I use the compressed position.
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Old February 16, 2014, 12:46 PM   #104
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Im thinking there are many here, who think their "kung fu" is the best, and are to proud to embrace the Bruce Lee philosophy on life.
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Old February 16, 2014, 11:54 PM   #105
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This conversation is getting ridiculous... in fact it is not a conversation any more, it is people talking past one another, and trying to score points.

Sul is what it is... Pros use it to prevent muzzling a good guy when a squad or team need to be tightly bunched. It is senseless to argue that it has no purpose, since pros are obviously using in some situations, and they would drop it like a bad habit if they thought it no longer useful.

I cant see ever using it in a self defense situation, I think a low ready or retention position will serve me well. But having practiced with it for a bit, I can see why some people find it useful.

Just because Sul might be useful in some situations, does not mean it is better than all other positions... Just because another position is better suited to a particular circumstance than Sul is, does not mean that Sul has no value. My choice of A does not invalidate your choice of B.
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Old February 17, 2014, 12:50 AM   #106
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...pros are obviously using in some situations, and they would drop it like a bad habit if they thought it no longer useful.

...

Just because Sul might be useful in some situations, does not mean it is better than all other positions......
And that is absolutely correct. SUL is useful for some things. It is not useful for other things. But it can be a worthwhile addition to one's toolbox to use for the purposes for which it is suited.

Just because the screwdriver won't do the things you'll want to use a wrench for is no reason to toss the screwdriver out of your toolbox.
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Old February 17, 2014, 10:13 PM   #107
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I thought sul was the dumbest thing I ever saw until I tried it. Yeah, I suppose if you do it incorrectly, you can point a gun at your toes. And if you do low ready incorrectly, you can point it your toes.

But to say there is a better ready position than sul... it's like saying a Dodge Caravan is a better car than a Neon.
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Old February 19, 2014, 05:42 PM   #108
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With bent elbows you have much more strength than if your arms were fully extended, it gives you leverage and allows you to explode with force.
Hold a pistol as shown in the Gomez video. Then, without warning, have a training partner spontaneously attempt to bash the gun into your face.

Or your training partner move about in close quarters with you following and then have your training partner suddenly stop without warning.

In both cases your arms will already be in motion with the gun coming into your face before you can react.
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Old February 19, 2014, 06:22 PM   #109
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If the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Learn to use different tools for different situations.

IF you follow the basic gun safety rules, such as not pointing your gun at people unless you intend to shoot them, then the 'stance' will take care of itself. Maintain positive gun retention/control. Keep the gun in close to you until you need to fire.
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Old February 19, 2014, 10:46 PM   #110
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I think a fairly reasonable way to move through a crowd is allow the crowd to move from me, not me though the crowd. The whole high chest broken wrist position is just too dramatic for me to accept. Can it benefit someone who decides to adopt it? .. sure. Its just not something I accept as an advance of anything I am currently doing. Just a preference thing.
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Old February 19, 2014, 10:57 PM   #111
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I've been perusing this thread, and it's got me wondering. People have addressed the origin of Sul for close proximity issues, but what about angle of incidence considerations for a potential ND and subsequent ricochets? Being in a city, most of the ground surfaces are concrete/asphalt. Should the low angle of incidence provided by Sul compared to other ready positions be a consideration? Thoughts?
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Old February 20, 2014, 03:41 AM   #112
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High ready has its uses when you're about to round a corner, but you have to be careful about using it as it puts your gun where it's easier to grab. That should really be its only use.

I honestly dislike low ready. It's awkward, rigid, and slow. The neutral ready position allows for much more fluid and adaptable movements. Low ready limits your ability to track laterally or respond to an unexpected conditions.

If I were to choose a best overall position, it would be neutral ready. It allows you to quickly go on target and adapt to changing conditions.
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Old February 20, 2014, 09:14 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WardenWolf
High ready has its uses when you're about to round a corner,...
Why would anyone want to hold his gun where it could block part of his vision while he's going around a corner?
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Old February 20, 2014, 12:13 PM   #114
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Quote:
Why would anyone want to hold his gun where it could block part of his vision while he's going around a corner?
No one would.
It's a simple matter of loweriing it an inch or two so it doesn't "block your vision".

Reality is even at eye level, it barely blocks anything at all, but anyone with a shred of common sense would keep the muzzle below eye level.

One could also shift it to the opposite side if "blocked vision" is a concern, although the truth is, it's not a problem at all

It's just a manufactured excuse that doesn't hold up to reality

If you don't believe it, hold something up close to your face and you will notice you can still see around it, as long as it's not the same width as the distance between your eyes.

Intelligent people would hold it lower though
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Old February 20, 2014, 12:33 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Why would anyone want to hold his gun where it could block part of his vision while he's going around a corner?
No one would.
It's a simple matter of loweriing it an inch or two so it doesn't "block your vision".

Reality is even at eye level, it barely blocks anything at all, but anyone with a shred of common sense would keep the muzzle below eye level...
As anyone who has done some shoothouse, simulator or force-on-force exercises would know, one wants a full field of vision when moving through an area in which there could be threats.
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Old February 20, 2014, 03:38 PM   #116
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As anyone who has done some shoothouse, simulator or force-on-force exercises would know, one wants a full field of vision when moving through an area in which there could be threats.
It doesn't matter what you have done.
Anyone who has two eyes can SEE your argument is simply not true.

You keep pretending it blocks your vision, when the fact is, it does not.

Even if held directly in front of your face, you can see AROUND it as long as you don't focus on it

Don't believe it?

Hold three fingers directly in front of your nose and look around.
You won't be blocking anything at all

It's a lame argument, and repetition won't make it any better
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Old February 20, 2014, 09:49 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote:
As anyone who has done some shoothouse, simulator or force-on-force exercises would know, one wants a full field of vision when moving through an area in which there could be threats.
It doesn't matter what you have done....
An expected response from someone lacking experience who does not know what he doesn't know. And an excellent example of the Dunning–Kruger effect:
Quote:
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
...Hold three fingers directly in front of your nose and look around...
This isn't about quietly sitting in your easy chair in front of the TV with your fingers in front of your face. This is about moving with a gun through an environment in which there may or may not be someone who wants to kill you. The threat, if there is one, could be anywhere; and there could even be more than one. Your survival will depend on your ability to instantly see a possible threat, identify it as a threat and take appropriate action.

You're welcome to try that while holding three fingers in front of your nose. I don't think I will.
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Old February 21, 2014, 01:49 AM   #118
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An expected response from someone lacking experience who does not know what he doesn't know. And an excellent example of the Dunning–Kruger effect:
You said you never trained with or used that method, so based on what you told me earlier, you are not quaified to have an opinion.

Quote:
You may certainly have an opinion, but not all opinions are equal. We have now established what your opinion is based on and therefore have a better idea of how much attention your opinion warrants.

You have based your opinion on merely your impressions seeing position SUL. Others have based their opinions on actual training with the position and use of the position.
Or have the standards changed now that it's your opinion?

You like to pretend you know a lot, but you're the one who can't seem to figure out how it's possible to hold a firearm safely pointed up, without either blocking your vision or pointing it at yourself

You can't logically dispute anything I've stated, so as always, you try to make it about me instead of just discussing the topic.

You instead resort to some psychobabble personal insult rather than admit I'm right about what I said in that it doesn't really block your vision if you have enough sense to figure it out
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Old February 21, 2014, 01:59 AM   #119
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The Dunning-Kruger effect isn't psychobabble, it's a documented effect that shows up constantly in everyday life. And especially in the gun world.

Almost nobody recommends any "high-ready" positions anymore. They're not very practical. We've figured out much better ways to carry guns in the last several decades.

Snyper, please stop. I've seen your posts in other threads and you're a smart, knowledgable guy. But your arguments here are making you look the opposite.
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Old February 21, 2014, 01:59 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
An expected response from someone lacking experience who does not know what he doesn't know. And an excellent example of the Dunning–Kruger effect:
You said you never trained with or used that method, so based on what you told me earlier, you are not quaified to have an opinion.
  1. There are reasons why the instructors I've trained with don't use that position, and I've explained it.

  2. And I have had experience training in shoothouses, simulators and force-on-force exercises, so I do know from experience what I need to be able to see and how I need to be able to see it.

  3. I also have experience having things in my field of vision, so I know from experience how such things can impair my vision.

You're free to persist in your opinions, just as I am free to dismiss them as specious.
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Old February 21, 2014, 09:23 AM   #121
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Are y'all still arguing about this? Amazing.
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Old February 21, 2014, 11:15 AM   #122
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There are reasons why the instructors I've trained with don't use that position, and I've explained it.

And I have had experience training in shoothouses, simulators and force-on-force exercises, so I do know from experience what I need to be able to see and how I need to be able to see it.

I also have experience having things in my field of vision, so I know from experience how such things can impair my vision.
LOL
You're a hoot.

You accuse me of trying to act "superior" when you can't go two posts without referriing to your "experience" and "training", and implying anyone who can't match it is not worth listening to

No amount of training will change reality
You expect me to believe you rather than what I can see for myself.
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Old February 21, 2014, 11:22 AM   #123
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The Dunning-Kruger effect isn't psychobabble, it's a documented effect that shows up constantly in everyday life. And especially in the gun world.
It's psychobabble when it's misapplied, but I do agree it's common to see, since there are quite a few examples of some here trying to act superior, and implying their knowledge negates everyone else's.
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Old February 21, 2014, 11:53 AM   #124
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We have better things to do than bicker.

I suggest that folks pay attention to folks with experience and make their own decisions.

Closed.
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