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Old February 12, 2014, 03:37 PM   #76
RX-79G
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If you know better about Sul, why not say what you know about it?

The criticisms leveled are that you don't have as much grip on the gun because of the thumb maneuver, and that the muzzle control comes from the off hand propping the gun, which you lose if that hand gets pulled away.

I would be happy to hear your thoughts on those criticisms.
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Old February 12, 2014, 04:29 PM   #77
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I've already said what I know about it: It provides a safe way to keep the gun as close to your body as possible, while still allowing a very fast presentation. The way you're holding the gun provides a lot more than just 3 fingers of support. And even if the support hand is removed, you're still gripping the gun with your strong hand in what amounts to a modified high-thumb grip; it's hardly unsupported.

For many of us who have learned it and practiced it, position Sul is useful in some situations. You may not like it, and that's fine; but criticizing it as useless when you haven't even practiced it is a little ridiculous.
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Old February 12, 2014, 04:42 PM   #78
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More sense in seven minutes than you could hope for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftC6MXFGxCg

FWIW, none of the position discussed in this video are what I use. I just like the way Paul lays the topic out and discusses it in context.

Regarding Sul (which I also don't use), I much prefer Mike Seeklander's modified version, as it keeps both hands on the gun in a strong retention position.

Last edited by zombietactics; February 12, 2014 at 04:54 PM.
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Old February 12, 2014, 07:35 PM   #79
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Quote:
I wouldn't call it an assumption, I'd call it an educated guess: It's fairly clear from what you've written here that you've never practiced the correct Sul position, otherwise you wouldn't be writing stuff like this:
Which of those things I stated aren't factual?
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Old February 12, 2014, 07:59 PM   #80
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote:
Forget taking a class; you've never even tried position Sul, let alone practiced it. All you've showed here is the importance of not forming strong opinions on subjects you know nothing about.
LOL Don't assume you know what I've done...
He wasn't assuming what you've done or haven't done. You stated in post 16 that you've never trained with SUL:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
...You're right though, I haven't had "training" with Sul...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote:
I wouldn't call it an assumption, I'd call it an educated guess: It's fairly clear from what you've written here that you've never practiced the correct Sul position, otherwise you wouldn't be writing stuff like this:
Which of those things I stated aren't factual?
It's not a question of "factual." It's a question of the inferences you have drawn.

You have observed certain attributes of the position; and, without having trained with the position, you have reached and stated your conclusions that the position is unsuitable for its intended purposes and you have called the position a (post 51):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
...the latest "tacticool" gimmick that says "Look at me"...
On the other hand, what is factual is that for close to 20 years many people have been training with and using the position finding it to be useful in real life in the real world. It has been tried and tested and found by many to be worthwhile.

That is a fact. And an inference which may be drawn from that fact is that people who have tried, tested, trained with and used the position have concluded that it serves a purpose -- in contrast to your conclusion, without having trained with the position, that it does not.
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Old February 12, 2014, 10:28 PM   #81
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Quote:
He wasn't assuming what you've done or haven't done. You stated in post 16 that you've never trained with SUL:
There are many things I never took a class in that I have actually done, so it was an assumption

Quote:
It's not a question of "factual." It's a question of the inferences you have drawn.
So you admit you can't refute the facts I've stated either.
You just want to claim my conclusions are less valid because I didn't pay someone to tell me about it

Quote:
On the other hand, what is factual is that for close to 20 years many people have been training with and using the position finding it to be useful in real life in the real world. It has been tried and tested and found by many to be worthwhile.
You've said that before.
It's "popular" with LEO's and LEO wannabe's.

It doesn't make the grip more secure, and doesn't make it safer, nor faster to use. It just means it's "popular" with a small following

It's of very limited use in most situations in which the average person will find themselves.
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Old February 12, 2014, 11:09 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote:
He wasn't assuming what you've done or haven't done. You stated in post 16 that you've never trained with SUL:
There are many things I never took a class in that I have actually done, so it was an assumption...
Training with a technique isn't necessarily the same thing as taking a class.

So exactly what is your experience with SUL?
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Old February 12, 2014, 11:15 PM   #83
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Can we just say, use the positions you are most comfortable with and hope you never have to in a real situation?
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Old February 13, 2014, 02:47 AM   #84
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Zombietactics, I almost used that video in the first post. He certainly presents logical commentary on those positions.

Quote:
but I stll see a gun gripped by just three fingers, pointed at your own toes, or someone elses if in a crowd
The WHOLE POINT of Sul, in my mind, is to not point a gun at someone in a crowd. Unless you are standing over someone (let's say a 10 degree cone here), you will not muzzle them in Sul.
Yes, the pistol is gripped by three fingers, as with most one-hand grips. Are you advocating exclusively using two-hand grips?
I agree that if you screw up you can muzzle your toes in Sul. That said, I feel it is fairly easy to train yourself to not do that.
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Old February 13, 2014, 07:39 AM   #85
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Paul Gomez addresses weaknesses with position SUL in this video and presents an alternative - "Positions for Muzzle Aversion by Gomez-Training.com" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLMesZVCZdw
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Old February 13, 2014, 08:07 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derbel McDillet
Paul Gomez addresses weaknesses with position SUL in this video and presents an alternative - "Positions for Muzzle Aversion by Gomez-Training.com" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLMesZVCZdw
Now that is interesting and useful. The late Paul Gomez certainly has established credibility. I do notice that some of his high position still have one's vision partially blocked by the gun and hands.

It'll be interesting to see if anyone picks up on those alternatives and starts teaching and using them. Do you know if anyone has?
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Old February 13, 2014, 12:05 PM   #87
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Quote:
The late Paul Gomez certainly has established credibility. I do notice that some of his high position still have one's vision partially blocked by the gun and hands.
LOL
He said many of the same things I did, including preferring a muzzle up carry to SUL. Once he even referred to SUL as a "terrible position"

Did you also notice he managed to do it without pointing the gun at his own head?

Why does it mean more when he says it than when I said pretty much the same thing?
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Old February 13, 2014, 01:32 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
...Why does it mean more when he says it than when I said pretty much the same thing?
Among other things --
  1. We know who he is and what he's done.

  2. He operated under his own name in the real world and staked his personal credibility and reputation on his opinions and performance.

  3. He took the time and effort to establish his credibility in the real world providing instruction to real people in the sort of classes which you like to disparage.

Now that he, before his untimely death, put out his suggestions, we'll see if anyone takes them up.
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Old February 13, 2014, 02:10 PM   #89
Derbel McDillet
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Quote:
Did you also notice he managed to do it without pointing the gun at his own head?
Yeah, but I'm wary of having a pistol up like that where it can be easily smashed into my face. Gomez's alternative is an option I'd consider using in some situations just as there are other situations where I feel SUL is a better choice.
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Old February 13, 2014, 02:21 PM   #90
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Quote:
Among other things --
We know who he is and what he's done.

He operated under his own name in the real world and staked his personal credibility and reputation on his opinions and performance.

He took the time and effort to establish his credibility in the real world providing instruction to real people in the sort of classes which you like to disparage.
None of that changes the facts of what I stated, does it?

If I say "The sky looks blue", and a weatherman says "the sky looks blue", does that make my statement false?

I don't disparage those who want to learn.
I just don't have much use for those who seem to think it makes them or their knowledge somehow superior or more credible, when it's really not

A fact is a fact no matter who states it.
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Old February 13, 2014, 02:24 PM   #91
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Quote:
Yeah, but I'm wary of having a pistol up like that where it can be easily smashed into my face.
If you've let someone get that close, it's moot which position your gun is in.

He did point out you're in a better position to counter than if you're in SUL or any of the low carry positions
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Old February 13, 2014, 04:03 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper View Post
...A fact is a fact no matter who states it.

We haven't been discussing facts. We've been discussing opinions, and not all opinions are equal.
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Old February 13, 2014, 04:09 PM   #93
Derbel McDillet
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Quote:
If you've let someone get that close, it's moot which position your gun is in.
With SUL I can simply retract my firing arm into retention position and parry/block with my support hand.

Quote:
He did point out you're in a better position to counter than if you're in SUL or any of the low carry positions
I don't agree. With the elbows bent as Gomez advocates an adversary can easily drive the gun into your face - with bent elbows you don't have the strength to effectively resist. If you bump into something (or somebody bumps into you) the muzzle is in your face. Also with the muzzle elevated it's easier for an adversary wrestle it out of your hand.

IMO SUL is better for maneuvering around people in close quarters and Gomez's method is good when you're not in close quarters.
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Old February 13, 2014, 04:51 PM   #94
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Pistol Ready Positions: Pros and Cons

Derbel McDillet,

Thank you. That is a good example of a discussion of the finer points of a technique by someone who is actually familiar with it.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; February 13, 2014 at 05:13 PM.
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Old February 13, 2014, 05:13 PM   #95
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Just as a personal aside, SUL really doesn't work for me. I broke my wrist years ago and lost some mobility/rotation. The downward angle is even a touch painful and certainly a weak hold . That might be unique for me, so I appreciate Paul's suggestions. I do see the point that you can get the gun pushed into your face. Nothing is perfect.

Funny, I took a class with Paul (both students in it) when I had the broke wrist - he was a great guy.
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Old February 13, 2014, 05:16 PM   #96
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But your not expressing objective facts. You're expressing the opinion that SUL isn't useful.
More on par with you and the weatherman saying it's going to rain.

I personally don't have a lot of use for sul as I don't do a lot of moving through crowds with weapon drawn. Honestly, I don't do a lot of moving with weapon drawn at all - or not when I'm not actively aiming/shooting.

I generally feel more comfortable with the sort of modified high ready shown in the posted video as my go to stance.
But, I'm willing to admit that's because of my preferences rather than the position.
And I'm not an expert so I don't really expect people on the internet to take my opinion on the matter as fact.

The fact is that a lot of very knowledgeable people -some of whom are experts - find it useful, so there's probably something there.
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Old February 13, 2014, 05:27 PM   #97
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Quote:
... "Positions for Muzzle Aversion by Gomez-Training.com" ...
Thanks for the link to the short video. Relevant comments and well reasoned perspectives.

He made some astute observations regarding the same primary issue I've always had when the SUL started making the rounds, which is the severely broken wrist and it's disadvantageous position & reduced control in the event of a retention range confrontation where deadly force isn't either lawful or practical.

Potentially "pinning" the support hand behind the weapon (under the wrong circumstances & if the timing of an event goes wrong), probably isn't optimal, either.

Neither is having the weapon's muzzle deflected inward, because it's the direction least defended against in the presence of a "gimped" wrist angle.

SUL with a handgun isn't the same thing as resting the dominant hand on the pistol grip of a rifle/carbine or shotgun being carried slung centerline.

I've used situational variations of what Gomez referred to as the "interrupted drawstroke" position, meaning with weapon placement running to different heights against my body, but keeping the master hand's wrist in a position of strength & control. Some flexibility and the ability to flow in response to the dynamics of real-world circumstances (which can become unpredictable, fast-paced and fuzzy) isn't a bad thing to explore during realistic training (conducted by experienced trainers, for safety).

Some FoF & Sim/FX marking cartridge training scenarios can reveal how events & their timing hardly ever go the way we would like to expect.

You know, much of the circumstances and body positioning, balance, kinesthetics, etc involved in handling, moving with & using hand held weapons (and protecting them) ... (as well as positioning bare hands & blades of various size & configuration) ... isn't unknown in the realm of martial arts. I've always thought of it as working to adapt to using old skills for accepting & employing new technology (guns).

I'll grant that my perspective and opinions on these things have been heavily influenced by having been involved in the arts since '71, but only having been a firearms instructor since '90, so I already had some notions of adapting movement and "technique" from the martial arts to guns.

I'll teach what I'm asked or told to teach, and I certainly keep a variety of approved techniques available to use for folks of varying experience, skills, physical size/strength, kinesthetic awareness, types of firearms, etc.

I always find it interesting to listen to other instructors and their experiences. Quite often, when it gets right down to it, we tend to agree more often, on the more critical priorities, than we disagree.

Not surprising. I saw much the same thing among instructors & senior practitioners of any number of different "styles" of martial arts. Then again when Defensive Tactics was becoming an evolving field.
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Old February 13, 2014, 08:05 PM   #98
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Quote:
We haven't been discussing facts. We've been discussing opinions, and not all opinions are equal.
You're correct
Some are worth nothing at all when they ignore reality based on who states the truth
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Old February 13, 2014, 08:09 PM   #99
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But your not expressing objective facts. You're expressing the opinion that SUL isn't useful.
More on par with you and the weatherman saying it's going to rain.
LOL
It's not useful for most people and it's not used by most people.
Thats both objective and factual
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Old February 13, 2014, 09:47 PM   #100
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Considering most people don't carry guns in crowded environs...you are 100% correct.

I think Mr. Gomez has some very sound criticisms in the video. Sul is not a strong retention position, as Mr. Gomez points out. If you are in a retention situation, something more like interrupted 2 or compressed ready would likely work the best. (Interrupted 2 giving you a hand to fight with, and compressed ready giving you the strongest grip, closest to your chest while maintaining a firing position.) I think where Sul excels is in keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe and known direction (launch a round at a 45 degree up angle, and you don't know where it will land). It also keeps the body compact (unless you chicken wing). It is reasonably quick, but as he states, not as quick as his preferred method. Like I commented before, I like the neutral ready as a default position, which is very close to his preferred stance (although I tend to keep the barrel a bit lower and more horizontal).

I'd also note his comment about thumb-over-thumb grips for the 1911. Considering that I did much of my learning on the 1911, I found Sul very practical as my thumb was naturally in a position to depress the thumb safety as my hands rotated into the firing position.
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