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Old February 11, 2014, 04:11 PM   #51
Snyper
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OF COURSE it's slower, it's not a true ready position. I think you're completely missing the point here; the Sul position allows you to carry the firearm in a safe manner that allows for maximum retention, while still being very quick to bring into action if needed. But the Sul position is not designed to replace those other ready positions, it's simply another tool to use.
I keep hearing all that rhetoric repeated, but I stll see a gun gripped by just three fingers, pointed at your own toes, or someone elses if in a crowd, that's proven to be slower than other methods

It's just the latest "tacticool" gimmick that says "Look at me"

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, for those who dont use/approve of the SUL position, when the need arises, how do you move safely (and discretely) amongst people, or in tight spaces, and without telegraphing your gun, but having it instantly ready?

Can you move 360*, without, or I should say, with a greatly reduced chance of sweeping someone?
By pointing the muzzle UP, you can move safely in all directions, and never point it at your own feet
If I have a gun out ready to use, "discrete" doesn't come into play.
Odds of "the need arrising" are similar to being struck by lightning
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Old February 11, 2014, 05:07 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
By pointing the muzzle UP, you can move safely in all directions
Except that pointing the muzzle up opens a whole 'nuther set of problems.
Quote:
It's just the latest "tacticool" gimmick that says "Look at me"
The latest gimmick was named in 1997? Dude, we've got to come up with newer stuff. I've been accused of lots of things, but "tacticool" isn't one of them.

If you don't like the position, fine, don't use it. I'm sure that you've got plenty of experience (55 years, I believe you said) which pretty much mirrors mine. I happen to find it eminently practical in a variety of situations. Like I said earlier, it's just another tool to get me through the day. I've been out of the SWAT business since 1991, and now I'm just a simple cop, trying to get through the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K
Wow! Lots of dug in toe nails against change around here. Good thing no one brought up the thumbs forward grip!
Heh! Yeah, I use both thumbs forward and thumbs down, depending on how I feel. Can't really see a benefit one way or the other.
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Old February 11, 2014, 05:31 PM   #53
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By pointing the muzzle UP, you can move safely in all directions, and never point it at your own feet
If I have a gun out ready to use, "discrete" doesn't come into play.
Odds of "the need arrising" are similar to being struck by lightning
Do we wait for the "range is hot" call too?

Then again, the ceilings in most indoor ranges Ive ever been to look like they were the backstops. Not sure how safe "up" really is.


Like I said, "dug in". Jerry Clower would be proud!

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Heh! Yeah, I use both thumbs forward and thumbs down, depending on how I feel. Can't really see a benefit one way or the other.
I saw the light and made it to the other side.
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Old February 11, 2014, 07:50 PM   #54
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I look at SUL as the "base" that all others either start from, and/or eventually return to. As PawPaw said, it is just another tool in the bag, but for those of us who find it very versatile, it tends to be the main tool, that can easily and quickly turn into any of the others as needed, yet offers more than they do in the end.
Interesting. I tend toward Neutral Ready as a default, and move to Sul when moving or in more crowded areas. That said, recently, most of my practice has been square ranges where there is a definite safe direction to my front.

If someone said, "I want you to fire one shot from the ready, at the beep," I'd go to Neutral Ready nearly all the time.
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Old February 11, 2014, 09:38 PM   #55
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I like natural ready as it feels the best to me. In the situations I'd most find myself in, it would also be the most practical, however Sul is something I'm now going to look into. However, in regards to the pointing up... Well it was explained to me this way by one of the local officers in my town when I was a kid. 'If your pointing up and happen to trip or fall, where is that barrel going to point?' Not an exact quote, but the gist of it. If i do happen to be in a situation where someone prefers that method, well I'll insist the walk in front of me...
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Old February 12, 2014, 12:14 AM   #56
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'If your pointing up and happen to trip or fall, where is that barrel going to point?
The same place it will point if you fall with it in the "SUL" position.
You can "what if" anything to death
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Old February 12, 2014, 02:27 AM   #57
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Well here's a thread from elsewhere that contains a few pics of the Sul position and variations of it (more natural and comfortable it seems to me) that some consider acceptable variations of the Sul position.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...ition-sul.html

Here also is a small video on it. The first few minutes are some background then he shows a few things and shows variations on it.

http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2013/01/...raining-video/

These may help a few think it through some.

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Old February 12, 2014, 10:05 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Snyper
...I keep hearing all that rhetoric repeated, but I stll see a gun gripped by just three fingers, pointed at your own toes, or someone elses if in a crowd, that's proven to be slower than other methods

It's just the latest "tacticool" gimmick that says "Look at me"...
On the other hand, you have, by your own admission, no training in SUL and of course no experience with it.

So we can all better decide how much attention to give to your opinions, what sort of training have you had?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
...By pointing the muzzle UP, you can move safely in all directions...
A major problem with the muzzle up is that the gun and you hands will be somewhere in your field of vision partially blocking your view.
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Old February 12, 2014, 10:52 AM   #59
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A major problem with the muzzle up is that the gun and you hands will be somewhere in your field of vision partially blocking your view.
Only if you raise your hands too high.
Common sense would say not to do that
We can all manufacture scenarios to fit the agenda

What the facts show is SUL, (according to the man who invented it) teaches you to point a gun, held with just 3 fingers, "between your own feet", and you have to be extremely careful if you move at all
Even he said it's "not a ready position, it's a safety position"

People can use anything they like, but trying to say it's "faster", "safer" and "natural" appear to be more opinion than fact, as has been shown.

Quote:
On the other hand, you have, by your own admission, no training in SUL and of course no experience with it.
It takes no "training" to see and read the facts.

Is no one allowed to have an opinion (which is what the OP requested) unless they "took a class"?

The OP asked the question
I merely answered it, and showed facts to support what I stated.

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Do you have complaints about specific positions or think your way is better than these? (If so, please inform us.)
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Old February 12, 2014, 11:07 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Snyper
Code:
A major problem with the muzzle up is that the gun and you hands will be somewhere in your field of vision partially blocking your view.
Only if you raise your hands too high.
Common sense would say not to do that...
But if you hold the gun low enough to be out of your fields of vision, you would then be pointing the gun at or near your head. Plus, it's a very awkward hand position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
Quote:
On the other hand, you have, by your own admission, no training in SUL and of course no experience with it.
It takes no "training" to see and read the facts.

Is no one allowed to have an opinion (which is what the OP requested) unless they "took a class"?

The OP asked the question
I merely answered it, and showed facts to support what I stated....
You may certainly have an opinion, but not all opinions are equal. We have now established what your opinion is based on and therefore have a better idea of how much attention your opinion warrants.

You have based your opinion on merely your impressions seeing position SUL. Others have based their opinions on actual training with the position and use of the position.
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Old February 12, 2014, 12:14 PM   #61
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I'll share my thoughts on this, though I doubt I'll get much agreement:

The SWAT training mentality is great for cops, but the over-reliance on two handed techniques for civilian SD is misplaced.

Any technique that requires two hands to be preformed safely is inappropriate for use by people like us. The real world has doors to open, family members guide, dogs to restrain, lights to flip on, muzzles to push away and people to push aside. If your training is to do everything with both hands you are going to risk trying to do off hand things with your gun because your brain isn’t going to want to give up that hold. If you treat your off hand as an assist in shooting accurately but not a necessity to correctly maneuver the gun I think you’ll be better off when you’re already fighting for your life.

The worst problem I can see with Sul is that the muzzle direction is affected by the presence of the off hand, since you only have three primary hand fingers on the gun and the off hand props the muzzle away from the body. If you suddenly bring the off hand up to do something necessary, you’ve lost muzzle control. That doesn’t seem like a great ready position. It is also far from discreet: Human females have breasts (no other mammal does) because humans naturally look at chests. We wear ties, necklaces, funny t-shirts on our chests and we expect them to be noticed.

I use neutral ready or some variation when the gun is immediately needed. I use a variation on close-quarter hold the rest of the time – I index my forearm on top of my hip bone and point the gun away from people with my wrist. In terms of speed, I can shoot from this position as fast as any other – just not as accurately (but it is for defense at close ranges, not a tactical assault and room clearing). It is also fairly discreet since the gun is tucked into my side.

While no one is ever going to call me a shooting expert, I do think that the training schools are teaching to a very, very specific type of police oriented scenario. As demonstrated by the whole “slide release” controversy, trainers have ideas that they’ve developed over time that don’t necessarily reflect reality – Army SD teaches using the slide release for consistency in total opposition to many trainers.

I’m not saying that the trainers are teaching badly, I’m saying that a civilian fighting for his life with a pistol ought to have their positions reflect a broader range of possibilities, and I advocate more emphasis on getting things done with just the shooting hand since WE do not have a team, a vest or a realistic expectation of the type of threat we may face. Training like a cop only sets false expectations and muscle memory conflicts, IMHO.
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Old February 12, 2014, 12:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by RX-79G
...Any technique that requires two hands to be preformed safely is inappropriate for use by people like us. The real world has doors to open, family members guide, dogs to restrain, lights to flip on, muzzles to push away and people to push aside...
Yes indeed. Which is why SUL is useful for certain purposes and not for others.

If you want some training and experience dealing with those sorts of situations, take a few classes at a school like Gunsite with shoothouses, and/or get involved in IDPA/USPSA competition.

At Gunsite we go through simulators/shoothouses on multiple occasions -- opening doors and dealing with obstacles. In my experience in USPSA competition we do that sort of thing as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RX-79G
...While no one is ever going to call me a shooting expert, I do think that the training schools are teaching to a very, very specific type of police oriented scenario...
So it appears that you have no experience with training schools. I can tell you from personal experience that Gunsite, Massad Ayoob, Louis Awerbuck and Walt Marshall do not teach "police oriented senarios."
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Old February 12, 2014, 12:54 PM   #63
RX-79G
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I shoot IDPA. And I already said that I don't think the schools are bad, just that too much of their techniques have evolved from police techniques.

I like that IDPA does the baby carryscenerio. I've observed how hard that is for many shooters that are very good otherwise.

I think that Sul is a good example of how we shouldn't be training.


Consider taking my comments for what they are - an advocacy of reliance on the shooting hand alone for the majority of gun handling. They are not intended to serve as scathing criticism of all shooting instructors, just framing the problem in that light considering how people embrace things like Sul.
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Old February 12, 2014, 01:03 PM   #64
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...Consider taking my comments ...are not intended to serve as scathing criticism of all shooting instructors, just framing the problem in that light considering how people embrace things like Sul.
It's hard to know what purpose they serve, since I hardly see anyone "embracing" SUL. Some of us have found it to be useful for certain purposes and have added it into our "toolbox." That seems to me to be a long way from "embracing" it.

I don't think anyone here has advocated adopting SUL and abandoning other techniques when those techniques better serve a particular purpose. And we have other techniques to use when we need to open doors and deal with obstacles.
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Old February 12, 2014, 01:32 PM   #65
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Dont most all the techniques blend and adapt as things change and evolve? Does anyone use "just one" for everything? I really dont see how you would.

While SUL is more or less my "base", a simple shift of the wrists and its now a compressed ready, a little more extension, its neutral, etc, etc. Things change as things change, and Im all for change as its needed. Having, or declaring there is only one way to do things, seems awful limiting and inflexible to me.

SUL to me just seems to be the best/safest way to deal with or handle the gun, when the gun is out, but doesnt need to be immediately pointed at someone, especially if others are around and movement is involved. I just dont see how the other methods can or would allow the same level of safety, being it retention or sweeping.

Hey, Im not saying any one of them is "best", just you never know what you dont know, until you give things a good try, and prove them to be good or bad for your needs. The only way I know to do that, is actually do it. Something might be the dumbest looking thing youve ever seen, until you try it, and find out looks sure can be deceiving.
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Old February 12, 2014, 01:54 PM   #66
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Geez, Frank. I'm just making a point about not putting too much emphasis on dual hand techniques. I'm critical of Weaver for similar reasons.

I don't think making a point about how we should be thinking about how civilians should apply techniques is so without merit that we can't discuss that reasonably.

It isn't like you've disagreed with what I do or suggest, just that I'm posing the problem in a way that offends you.
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Old February 12, 2014, 02:13 PM   #67
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Just use the correct tool for the job at hand. Trying to do EVERYTHING with a hammer makes the job harder

If you need to go to SUL as you turn past a loved one. Go into it and then get back to the ready you like as a standard.

Both hands on the gun.... Good. Need to open a door, well i guess you better know some techniques for that

Not everything is a nail. Use other tools!!!
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Old February 12, 2014, 02:25 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Snyper
It takes no "training" to see and read the facts.

Is no one allowed to have an opinion (which is what the OP requested) unless they "took a class"?

The OP asked the question
I merely answered it, and showed facts to support what I stated.
Forget taking a class; you've never even tried position Sul, let alone practiced it. All you've showed here is the importance of not forming strong opinions on subjects you know nothing about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite
Just use the correct tool for the job at hand. Trying to do EVERYTHING with a hammer makes the job harder

If you need to go to SUL as you turn past a loved one. Go into it and then get back to the ready you like as a standard.

Both hands on the gun.... Good. Need to open a door, well i guess you better know some techniques for that

Not everything is a nail. Use other tools!!!
Exactly! Some of the people here arguing against Sul have no experience with it and they seem to think we're advocating that it replace all ready positions and be your only position, when that's not the case at all.
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Old February 12, 2014, 02:37 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by RX-79G View Post
...It isn't like you've disagreed with what I do or suggest, just that I'm posing the problem in a way that offends you.

Well I am commenting on your statements as I read them. Others can decide if I'm expressing being offended.

I do disagree with your contention that SUL is an example of how we shouldn't be training. To the contrary, I think it's a useful tool we should train with and use when appropriate. And of course not use when it's not.
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Old February 12, 2014, 02:45 PM   #70
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But if you hold the gun low enough to be out of your fields of vision, you would then be pointing the gun at or near your head. Plus, it's a very awkward hand position.
LOL
No you wouldn't and it's no more "awkward" than anything else

Like I said before, you can fabricate any scenario you like to fit your argument.

Rather than factually refute what I said, you want to change the topic to the amount of formal "training" someone has.

You don't have to give my opinions any "weight" at all, but if the facts are wrong you should be able to disprove them rather than pull the "I know more than you because I paid someone to tell me what to think" argument.

Quote:
Others have based their opinions on actual training with the position and use of the position.
That doesn't change the facts I stated at all.
They just keep repeating the rhetoric
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Old February 12, 2014, 02:51 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Snyper View Post
...Rather than factually refute what I said, you want to change the topic to the amount of formal "training" someone has...

To what particular facts do you refer?

One relevant fact is that folks have trained with and successfully use SUL for something on the order of twenty years.
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Old February 12, 2014, 02:53 PM   #72
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Forget taking a class; you've never even tried position Sul, let alone practiced it. All you've showed here is the importance of not forming strong opinions on subjects you know nothing about.
LOL Don't assume you know what I've done
Unless of course you've taken a class on it
Otherwise YOU are stating an opinion on something you know nothing about
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Old February 12, 2014, 02:54 PM   #73
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To what particular facts do you refer?
Do I really need to list them again?
They haven't changed


Quote:
One relevant fact is that folks have trained with and successfully use SUL for something on the order of twenty years.
And for decades before that they did things differently

That has nothing to do with anything at all about the technique itself
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Old February 12, 2014, 03:03 PM   #74
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Too much thinking.
Compressed when moving (to be clear pistol in tight to chest pointed directly outward) and out pointing if not moving.

1. I can just piston out and shoot at the same time. Plus its less heavy for a more extended period of time.
2. If you're in front of me, you're the BG. I want to sweep you.
3. this is likely a home situation. If I am moving, then its less of a chance someone can grab it. If not moving I am facing the threat and likely braced.

If its outdoors its likely one handed and there is not ready position. I've shot you or you you've shot me.
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Old February 12, 2014, 03:24 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Snyper
LOL Don't assume you know what I've done
Unless of course you've taken a class on it
Otherwise YOU are stating an opinion on something you know nothing about
I wouldn't call it an assumption, I'd call it an educated guess: It's fairly clear from what you've written here that you've never practiced the correct Sul position, otherwise you wouldn't be writing stuff like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
but I stll see a gun gripped by just three fingers, pointed at your own toes, or someone elses if in a crowd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
teaches you to point a gun, held with just 3 fingers, "between your own feet", and you have to be extremely careful if you move at all
Like I said, it's not a good idea to form a strong opinion on a subject you know very little about.
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