The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old February 9, 2014, 03:53 PM   #1
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,312
Pistol Ready Positions: Pros and Cons

(On another thread, we sidetracked away from the topic into the pros and cons of various ready positions. Opinions were strong, so I thought I'd move it to a new thread.)

I'd like to discus a few pistol positions that I've seen taught. Feel free to add others that you've seen!

To start, let's agree to some terms for the discussion. Let's use the ones here: http://www.handgunsmag.com/2013/09/0...st-deployment/
-Traditional Low Ready
-Neutral Ready
-Compressed Ready
-High Ready
-Sul
If you are going to talk about something different, please describe it, and don't call it the same as one of these.

Personally, I am a fan of Neutral Ready and Sul. Neutral ready provides a good balance of speed while not muzzling the person or target you are interacting with (provided they/it are more than a few feet away). Sul works well when the floor is a safe muzzle direction and you are moving in close proximity to people or objects you don't want to muzzle. With practice, it is still fairly quick to target via Compressed ready (what I would call "firing from retention" or "Step 3" of the 4 step draw stroke) or full extension.

I am not a fan of High Ready, as described, as I feel it is very far off target, and would waste time, while not providing more security or safety than Sul or Neutral Ready. Obviously, if straight up is the only direction you want the muzzle, it may have to do.

I have seen a "Modified High Ready" where the muzzle is more toward a 45 degree up cant, and a moderate distance from the body. This would be about halfway between Neutral Ready and High Ready. I don't feel it is a bad position, per say; however I don't think it is as efficient as Neutral Ready while it only buys a few extra feet of safe area in front of the shooter. It should be obvious that if you are at the Neutral Ready, and a non-threat is approaching the muzzle axis, you may want to move the muzzle higher.

DISCUSSION:
So, what positions do you train with and what are your intended uses? Do you have complaints about specific positions or think your way is better than these? (If so, please inform us.)
raimius is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 04:14 PM   #2
manta49
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2011
Location: N Ireland. UK.
Posts: 1,250
I think you can overthink these things, just point and shoot.
manta49 is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 04:28 PM   #3
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,312
From what I've read, Sul was developed after some police officers were shooting each other too often when stacking at a door. So, I'd say, sometimes "just point and shoot" leaves too much to human error.
raimius is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 05:58 PM   #4
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 1,186
I am a low ready person but I selected my method in the early 80's. Its just how it was done then and its how I do it now. I also grip a AR by the magwell... its just me.

The only issue I have with all this new-cool method is the over articulated robotic draw and high presentation. It looks neat but it seems like alot of wasted effort. It just doesnt take all that to put a sight post on a relatively close target.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 06:42 PM   #5
ryanjblajda
Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2014
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 25
as a EXTREMELY new person to shooting and such, (read my thread) from what i read, the most safe and fastest to ready position looks like Sul. curious, but why isnt there a hybrid version of Low Ready, and Compressed Ready, where you basically take compressed ready and point the muzzle slightly downwards?
ryanjblajda is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 06:56 PM   #6
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
David Spaulding...

Gun writer & retired LE officer; Dave Spaulding teaches what he calls a "third eye" method. He wrote a detailed magazine article about it. It's like a "low ready" tactic but at the chest level.

I've read a few magazine items about the Sul or South(Portrugese) method.
It seems safe & practical for urban areas or confined spaces that may be crowded.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 06:58 PM   #7
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 190
I agree with Manta
Too much thinking and not enough just doing what feels right for the situation.
That "Sul" position just sounds stupid
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 07:12 PM   #8
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper
...That "Sul" position just sounds stupid
I used to think so, but enough training experience now has me convinced that it has its uses. It can be very helpful when/if one must have a gun in his hands and immediately available in a crowded environment.




__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 07:13 PM   #9
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,312
Ryan, there is some risk with Sul that you can muzzle your own feet, especially if you bend aggressively at the waist. I would say that Low Ready or Neutral ready are likely to be the fastest, since there is less required motion to get to full extension. That said, you can fire at very close targets from Compressed Ready, so for that 3-5ft target, I guess that would be the fastest.
raimius is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 07:27 PM   #10
ryanjblajda
Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2014
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by raimius
Ryan, there is some risk with Sul that you can muzzle your own feet, especially if you bend aggressively at the waist. I would say that Low Ready or Neutral ready are likely to be the fastest, since there is less required motion to get to full extension. That said, you can fire at very close targets from Compressed Ready, so for that 3-5ft target, I guess that would be the fastest.
good point. i didnt think about the feet.
ryanjblajda is offline  
Old February 9, 2014, 07:33 PM   #11
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,312
Yes, if you hunch over with a firearm in Sul, you need to train yourself to let the muzzle rotate a little forward. I've seen this happen (and done it myself) while learning. It also reinforces the idea that you should have a coach or teacher around to point out mistakes and places to improve.

I still think it is a useful stance, but like everything firearm related, you still need to have your brain engaged.
raimius is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 07:48 AM   #12
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
ASP/Ring/Blue guns....

If you really want to "run & gun" you can get a polymer ASP, Ring or Blue gun then practice these drills/stances. You can do it with a unloaded weapon too, but I wouldn't want to nick/scuff/damage a $500-1200.00 pistol doing these kinds of drills.

As noted, crowds, densely packed areas & stress can not be brought up enough.
People(sheeple) tend to panic in critical incidents they will run, tromp and push through anyone. If you deploy a firearm or work as a armed professional(security, EP, LE, etc) you need to retain your firearm and be ready to shoot quickly.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 08:14 AM   #13
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 190
Quote:
It can be very helpful when/if one must have a gun in his hands and immediately available in a crowded environment.
If you move at all it will end up pointing at your feet and legs, and you only have one hand on your weapon

I'll stick with a two hand hold and a more natural position, and I suspect, in a crowd, pointing the muzzle up is actually much safer

Those pictures look to be neither natural nor comfortable to me
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 08:38 AM   #14
Derbel McDillet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2013
Posts: 222
Quote:
If you move at all it will end up pointing at your feet and legs...
This is untrue. The muzzle is canted far enough forward to clear your legs and feet.

Quote:
Those pictures look to be neither natural nor comfortable to me
It appears you have zero training and experience with position SUL.

(Note how the firing hand in position SUL is virtually identical to the firing hand on a pistol gripped long gun when carried in "indoor ready" position.)
Derbel McDillet is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 09:31 AM   #15
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 4,859
The largest delay in getting muzzle to target comes from the time it takes to make the decision as to whether to shoot or not.
Compared to that delay, the differences between all the mentioned ready positions are very small.
And not all that much of a time savings from hand on a holstered pistol, the safest one, especially when moving is involved.
Try them all, using a timer, and see which one is better for you.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 09:55 AM   #16
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 190
Quote:
(Note how the firing hand in position SUL is virtually identical to the firing hand on a pistol gripped long gun when carried in "indoor ready" position.)
Quote:
The muzzle is canted far enough forward to clear your legs and feet.
The muzzles in those pictures aren't.

The other thing I "note" is there are only 3 fingers holding the gun at all, and I still don't see how, holding it at that angle, that you can avoid pointing it at your feet (or someone else's) if you walk

A pistol grip rifle has nothing do do with where the handgun muzzle is pointed, so I'm not sure how that's relevant

You're right though, I haven't had "training" with Sul
I've only got 55 years of shooting experience to go by
__________________
One shot, one kill

Last edited by Snyper; February 10, 2014 at 10:00 AM.
Snyper is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 10:09 AM   #17
Derbel McDillet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2013
Posts: 222
Quote:
I still don't see how, holding it at that angle, that you can avoid pointing it at your feet (or someone else's) if you walk.
You probably never will without training and experience. Without training and experience all you're able to do is speculate.

Position SUL allows you to safely maneuver in a crowd without pointing your muzzle at anyone.

Quote:
A pistol grip rifle has nothing do do with where the handgun muzzle is pointed, so I'm not sure how that's relevant
"Indoor tactical ready", as taught by Louis Awerbuck, positions the muzzle of a long gun pointing near the feet in a manner virtually identical to the way position SUL does with a handgun muzzle.

Quote:
I've only got 55 years of shooting experience to go by...
And zero experience with position SUL from which to form an informed opinion.
Derbel McDillet is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 10:09 AM   #18
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Location: PA -- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 7,778
Quote:
If you move at all it will end up pointing at your feet and legs...
I found this awhile back, and it explains things better than trying to do it by typing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrYEBNFhsd8

There is no one "perfect" ready position for all instances, but Ive always found SUL to come pretty close.
__________________
“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.”
― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

Zeitgeist - The Movie
AK103K is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 10:57 AM   #19
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,478
Unless this is some sort of enjoyable, hypothetical armchair exercise, many of these questions require some exposure to properly conducted training in order to get some meaningful answers.

Carrying and moving about in the real world while holding a handgun can expose the armed person to a myriad of situations, ranging from those imaginable to probably a surprising number of them haven't been considered. The world and how its events unfold is hardly ever scripted to our expectations, right?

Only knowing how to hold the handgun in 1 or 2 pre-programmed techniques, and counting on always having both hands available to devote to the gun, may not provide someone with enough tools to face some real-world problems.

Training often answers a lot of questions, including questions someone may not have known needed to be asked prior to the training experience.

Understanding basics is always good, but learning how to safely, properly & effectively apply them in a variety of situations, and how to change according to the demands of the moment ... especially while under stress ... is probably best learned under the watchful eye of an experienced instructor.

Learning martial arts via the self-taught method, whether from books, magazine articles, video clips or DVD's, is still not nearly as effective of a method of learning as hands-on training under a trainer. Useful as a supplement for the learning process, sure, but not as a replacement for actual training & supervised practice.

Mistakes and bad habits are usually hard for the practitioner/student to spot for themselves.
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 11:29 AM   #20
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,108
Quote:
From what I've read, Sul was developed after some police officers were shooting each other too often when stacking at a door.
Yes, and no. From DefensiveCarry.com
Quote:
Mr. Alan Brosnan describes this position this way: Position SUL, is not a classic "gun ready" position, but rather a "gun safety" position. It was primarily designed for the Brazilian officers as they poured Out of their SUVs on missions in the slums. Their muzzle control was atrocious, and since Max and I were in the SUVs, it did not take much brain power for us to create a solution to this evident problem -- be it right or wrong for many of the US instructors and critics. I think most of them thought it was a substitute for a classic "gun-ready" position and that is where the confusion came in.
I like Sul, because it is easy to stack people closely together with relative safety. I say "relative safety" because if something goes wrong in the stack, you're going to shoot your buddy in the lower extremities rather than between the shoulder blades, so Sul isn't a panacea for poor gun-handling, it's just one way that a trainer tried to find a less-dangerous way of getting out of vehicles.
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 12:24 PM   #21
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 190
Quote:
And zero experience with position SUL from which to form an informed opinion.
How much "experience" do you need to see where the muzzle is pointed?
It's just the latest fad, and no better than other time tested positions
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/...ition-sul.html
Here's what the guy who invented it had to say:

Quote:
Mr. Alan Brosnan describes this position this way: Position SUL, is not a classic "gun ready" position, but rather a "gun safety" position.
Quote:
3. The muzzle of the weapon is pointed directly at the ground between the shooter’s feet. The slide/barrel of the handgun is held against the back of the knuckles of the support hand.

Care must be taken to ensure that the muzzle does not point outward to the front or to the side of the shooter.

The muzzle MUST be straight down.
LOL
It seems the guy who invented it doesn't do it "correctly" according to the "experienced" shooters here:

Quote:
The muzzle is canted far enough forward to clear your legs and feet.
For the vast majority of people it has no practical advantage
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 12:33 PM   #22
Striker1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 635
I think some times people get too "locked in" on a ready/carry position and view it as static...I will only hold this way or that when in reality you will probably flow between two or more depending on actual needs of the situation in that moment in time. For instance, you might go from neutral or compressed ready to sul if you need to turn with the weapon and face a different direction then move back to neutral or compressed ready.

It is really hard to make an educated judgement until you get some experience in these areas. They all have their uses.
Striker1 is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 12:39 PM   #23
PawPaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2010
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 3,108
Quote:
For the vast majority of people it has no practical advantage
Granted. For the vast majority of people, other methods may work better, but it wasn't designed for the vast majority of people. The vast majority of people would be better served by simply holstering the weapon.

Don't over-think this thing. Learn from the instructors and apply the lessons to the real world. I've used SUL in the real world, and for limited applications it's a relatively safe way to move through a crowd of people. (There's that word "relatively" again.)
__________________
Dennis Dezendorf

http://pawpawshouse.blogspot.com
PawPaw is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 12:42 PM   #24
tipoc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2004
Location: Redwood City, Ca.
Posts: 2,307
Quote:
I like Sul, because it is easy to stack people closely together with relative safety. I say "relative safety" because if something goes wrong in the stack, you're going to shoot your buddy in the lower extremities rather than between the shoulder blades, so Sul isn't a panacea for poor gun-handling, it's just one way that a trainer tried to find a less-dangerous way of getting out of vehicles.
And being stacked in narrow hallways. It is useful for this. It can also be useful for moving quickly through a crowd. It is a position that one transfers into and out of as it is a clumsy one to be in for any length of time. It has been overly formalized for some instruction and training purposes as methods often are. You can see this in the pics above. In practice the thumbs do not need to touch each other and a firm grasp should be kept on the firearm, etc.

It's essence is that the muzzle is pointed at the ground, the gun held close to the body and retained there, and it's intended for use while moving or in a crowded place. It is a strong weapons retention hold. The gun can be quickly elevated for a close to the body shot or to extension, or to a less awkward position. It is useful in some situations IMHO.

tipoc
tipoc is offline  
Old February 10, 2014, 12:57 PM   #25
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,537
Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
...I've used SUL in the real world, and for limited applications it's a relatively safe way to move through a crowd of people.
Which is its purpose -- and purpose it serves very well if one is trained in it, trains with it and does it properly.

It is was never intended to be a general use ready position. It was intended to be, and is, a specialized tool for a particular task.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.17389 seconds with 7 queries