The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 10, 2014, 07:23 PM   #51
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 611
AMEN BROTHER.

The warrior who yearns for a battle is just like a through- bred race horse.

Any 20-25 year old that has spent YEARS training to be the top of their field wants to test himself. Doesnt mean hes a crazed killer

I take issue with that statement
Sharkbite is offline  
Old February 13, 2014, 12:49 AM   #52
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,415
One of the ladies in my firearms class has a daughter the graduated from Syracuse University with a Masters in Forensic Firearm Investigation.

She's been coming to my class so tonight I discussed the "shooting distance" article with her.

She's studied and conducted thousands of test determining shooting distance. She told me a huge majority of civilian involved shooting was 5-6 feet. LE is handed different in the lab, but roughly, the move out to 15 feet for most. Another category where the suspect had long arms, the distance for LE moved to 30 feet.

Based on her studies and experience the 3-3-3 rule is valid. Her finding pretty much matched my experience of 20 years in LE and my CSI work (though not near as extensive as hers).

So file the into "the what its worth department".
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is online now  
Old March 6, 2014, 12:19 PM   #53
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 2,419
Wait, what?

If there is one thing we can take away from this discussion is that the .40 really is better than the 9mm and the .45.

Glad we finally put that one to bed.
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old March 6, 2014, 02:41 PM   #54
1-DAB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2010
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 146
so 91% involved 10 shots or less?

my commander has 8+1=9. that should suffice for my needs without having to haul spare mags everywhere i go.
1-DAB is offline  
Old March 6, 2014, 03:01 PM   #55
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2002
Location: northern CA for a little while longer
Posts: 1,482
Quote:
... my commander has 8+1=9. that should suffice for my needs without having to haul spare mags everywhere i go.
Magazines are one of the weak points when it comes to 1911-style pistols. Even the best mags need to be checked & maintained for proper condition & function of the parts. Cleanliness of mag bodies, weakened springs, worn followers.

I remember one day when one of the special enforcement guys issued a 1911 was running some range drills, having come in off the street/on-duty. At one point his primary mag (in the gun) experienced a stoppage, causing him to clear & rip the mag from the gun, going to a spare ... which also exhibited a stoppage. He went for his 3rd spare mag, but it had already been used and was laying on the ground. End of drill (out of mags & time).

He hadn't replaced his mag springs for a while. Those guns (issued 1911's) see usage for training every month (once a month), and they tend to eat recoil & mag springs. Probably doesn't help that they use +P loads, although they've changed from +P to standard pressure for most training, due to cost and amount of the amount of the training ammo they use.

Whenever I carry one of my 1911's, I carry a spare mag as much for being able to resolve any potential mag-related stoppage as for having spare ammo. I periodically inspect my 1911's as an armorer, too, and keep them sufficiently lubricated, and with good springs, etc. The mags get carefully inspected & maintained, as well. I've gone through more mags than I can remember over the years, as once they can't be kept properly functioning with parts replacement (mag bodies get too worn), they get tossed and replaced.
__________________
Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer
fastbolt is offline  
Old March 6, 2014, 05:26 PM   #56
1-DAB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 5, 2010
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Posts: 146
new mags from McCormick. work just fine.
1-DAB is offline  
Old March 6, 2014, 10:45 PM   #57
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
I look at the LAPD report (and SOP9 for that matter) as more of a understanding of what ranges a gunfight can happen to ANYBODY.

True cops stick their noses in other peoples business and thus the situations can be much different that what a citizen might be in, but.... the operative word is 'might be in'.

A gunfight is a gunfight.

Even if we consider the 'average' citizen or 'average' shooting, well average means the 50 percentile.

So I look at the studies to see what ranges and numbers of shots fired do actually happen and plan accordingly. Especially in these interesting times.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old March 7, 2014, 12:27 PM   #58
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,646
Average means the 50th percentile only in symmetrical distributions (a stat quibble) but the point is well taken. I have always said that you should plan for a reasonable cut in the extreme tail of the incident intensity distribution.

For example, the average gun fight is close. But there are rampages in place like where I work. Our hallway is 284 long. That's not close. It is not inconceivable if you carried, that's the shot. Recall the AF military police office who engaged a rampager at similar distance.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 7, 2014, 01:03 PM   #59
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
Recall the AF military police office who engaged a rampager at similar distance.
I think it was about 65 yards. There was also a controversial Border Patrol shooting @ 50 yards with a head shot in El Paso a few years ago.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old March 7, 2014, 01:42 PM   #60
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 611
So... The take home msg is "train for the worst and hope for the best"

If it happens at 3' and i point shoot the attacker 3 times, stopping him/her then thats great

If i have to shoot someone across a parking lot who is threatening my wife... I better be capable of making those shots.

To only train for the close stuff leaves a hole in your ability to control your entire environment. Id rather over train then under!!!

The same goes for one handed shooting, malfunction clearences, reloads, flashlight usage, hostage rescue shots.... The list goes on

Statistics are fine, but a 1 in Million chance dont mean a darn thing if YOU are that ONE.
Sharkbite is offline  
Old March 7, 2014, 02:21 PM   #61
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,646
At a seminar on risk, the speaker said: It is as rare as being hit by lightning or being in a jet line crash.

I've been hit by lightning. The friend next to me survived a DC-8 crash in the woods that killed the front of plane.

We raised our hands and laughed.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 7, 2014, 02:30 PM   #62
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 611
Exactly my point.

If you are involved in a deadly force encounter you are already having a BAD day. If you are not prepared for the circumstances at hand.... It just got alot worse.

Thats what drives me crazy about the folks that go thru the trouble of getting permitted to CCW, supposedly to be able to defend themselves and loved ones and then carry some itty bitty hard to shoot, ballistically challenged gun. Saying "well i'll never need it anyway"

Ohhhh well. I'll carry what im comfortable with.. They can carry what they are comfortable with. I just hope that lightning doesn't strike them and they come up short
Sharkbite is offline  
Old March 7, 2014, 03:31 PM   #63
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,646
Interesting the short range, few shots mantra is being used against. Over on THR, there is a thread on a California judge ruling against higher capacity magazines. The judge cites the NRA stat of about 3 shots fired. The argument would be similar to ban ARs as you don't need a distance weapon with 30 rounds.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...=745975&page=2

So all the 'it's the average' and thus that is what will always happen (take Statistics ) have contributed to an argument which can bite the gun world on the rear end. We say only nuts and paranoids would worry about more than 3 shots and 3 yards. So why should a judge support the right to have more? See the point?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 7, 2014, 11:35 PM   #64
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,299
Quote:
We say only nuts and paranoids would worry about more than 3 shots and 3 yards. So why should a judge support the right to have more? See the point?
But, but, but... It's not the same thing at all!

We're saying that as post-rationalization for a decision we've already made to carry some little-bitty, super-light gun that will practically disappear in our pocket--he's trying to infringe on our rights!
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old March 8, 2014, 12:41 AM   #65
Blue Duck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 240
It stands to reason that cop shootings will average out at longer distances then civilian shootings, because for one thing it's probably the goal of the bad guy to get away, so he will probably be opening the distance instead of closing the distance, and also I think we can safely assume that it's very rare, for a bad guy to attempt to rob a cop, and to rob someone, it's usually necessary to close the distance. Of course a lot of cop shootings are close anyway, because the officer has closed the distance, still the averages would be longer.

Civilian shootings would average much closer in general, because most of the time the perpetrator will close the distance at first, unless met with armed resistance, otherwise a gunfight will probably not happen in the first place. It's true that a lot of residential and business shootings will happen after someone goes and gets their gun from maybe even another room, etc. and that will involve all sorts of firearms, both long and short.

On the street, most shootings involving a robbery victim are probably at just beyond arms length, and the victim is already behind the curve, by the time the shooting starts, with the dirtbag already at close range, with gun or knife in hand, if not already actually clubbing or grappling the victim. In this case, I see the victim needing immediate access to a short barreled foolproof handgun, and it probably doesn't have to be that accurate but accuracy never hurts. IMHO a 38 snub in a strong side holster is just about perfect in this case, but that's just my opinion, and I carry all sorts of handguns as a civilian depending on wardrobe, my activities planned for the day, etc.
Blue Duck is offline  
Old March 8, 2014, 03:46 PM   #66
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,646
"Most shootings" - that the center of the argument. The J frame works well for the close up single mugger be gone scenario.

Move away from that towards a gang of folks (seen it) or some horror like Mumbai, VT, etc. then it isn't optimal.

The user decides where they want to make the cut in the risk profile.

I think that a semi in 9mm or greater and an extra mag or two probably is reasonably high in the risk distribution to cover most. Not to say that I won't just wander around with a J and speed loader if it is the dress convenient option.

A BUG with that moves me from the .05 level cut to the .01 level cut of risk - that's a stat joke.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 8, 2014, 07:00 PM   #67
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 611
Again.. EXACTLY this^^^^^

If i happen to be unfortunately present in say, a mass/active shooter event i dont want to have to protect my family with just a J frame and no reload

I'll stick with my Glock and a spare mag to keep the "wolves" away until a better armed response can get there

Dont tell me that as a CCW holder you wont have to deal with mtpl assailants. Your crystal ball isnt that good. Better to have and not need, then need and not have.
Sharkbite is offline  
Old March 8, 2014, 09:19 PM   #68
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
It stands to reason that cop shootings will average out at longer distances then civilian shootings, because for one thing it's probably the goal of the bad guy to get away, so he will probably be opening the distance instead of closing the distance, and also I think we can safely assume that it's very rare, for a bad guy to attempt to rob a cop, and to rob someone, it's usually necessary to close the distance. Of course a lot of cop shootings are close anyway, because the officer has closed the distance, still the averages would be longer.
That is a flawed assumption. The BG may not want to rob the cop, he wants to kill the cop, big difference.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old March 8, 2014, 11:56 PM   #69
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,236
If any of you have heard of Rangemaster, in Memphis Tenn., and Tom Givens you know his students have now been in over 60 shootings.

Fair percentage of them had multiple opponents.

The only one to fail at defending themselves successfully was one who didn't bring his gun.

Yes I really like my J frame .38s and .357s, but unless you are a real good and fast shot it is wise to have something with a few more BBs.

Deaf
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old March 9, 2014, 01:10 AM   #70
Blue Duck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 240
I agree with everyone, in that more shots are better, but the first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun, and while the 5 or six shot snub might be short on BB's, it's nearly foolproof, and lightening fast if carried right. When I carry a snub I usually carry another small back up gun, and one or two knives.

Sure, I would rather always have a bigger gun, but sometimes it's just not that practical to pack a bigger gun. The farther away from home, the bigger the gun I am willing to conceal.

I did experience an eye opener today, however. Just a wake up call as to how fast things can develop. While walking through a parking lot with my wife, I was suddenly confronted by two roughly dressed men, asking for directions to a local bank, that seemly came out of nowhere. My wife and I were spread out a little, they were spread out a little. I was instantly on red alert but nothing came of it. Still yet I am not sure it there original motive was legit, and they could have probably jumped me.

I was carrying a 5 shot Smith 442 snub in a an inside vest pocket of my Carhart vest, and a North American 22 mag 5 shot 22 mag on the opposite side pocket. Also, a Benchmade lock blade folder clipped on one front pants pocket, and a 6.5 inch Puma Bowie knife in a custom made inside the pants scabbard on my weak side, reverse Calvary draw.

Because of my activities today, I felt that I could not carry or didnot want to carry a bigger gun, however, I do train to fight with the guns I carry, so I really didn't feel too undergunned but I guess I would have been at a disadvantage, if they had had a gun and had planned a better trap, and this time I was not carrying my snub in the fastest location, but at least I did have several weapons that could have been brought into play.

What bothered me the most was the fact that I had let the encounter develop without any warning hardly at all. If they had chosen to they could have been on me before I could have hardly reacted, which is one reason I like to have several weapons accessible by either hand, I might not come out unscathed but they would have more then likely gotten snake bit by something.
Blue Duck is offline  
Old March 17, 2014, 06:57 AM   #71
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 850
When I shot IPSC, early 80s, the pistols used? Mostly Colt 45, 1911.

The magazines that came with the guns? On average? Not good.

Since moving to Florida, from Canada, and now being able to CCW with a pistol of my choice. I have carried a Glock 19, with a spare G17 magazine.

Eleven years. Same set up. As the majority of problems I have observed with Pistols, are magazine related IMHO. I will go on record as stating, Glock magazines are the best in the world, and I have never had a malfunction with one of them. Mind you I am not shy about rotating new ones into the mix.
Obtained my first Glock pistol, G17 in 1984.

As in my spare G17 magazine, worn next to my Surefire light on the left side, it is bran new. Thank you Son.

So forget capacity, barrel length, sights! If what you carry goes down! Because of magazine problems, scrap your defensive equipment, get one that works all the time!

The 9mm is the most used pistol caliber in the world, that suits me just fine.
And the fact that 16 of them are ready to go, on the belt, in the same place, always, gives me that nice feeling that it will work if required.

Having a spare 17 cartridges ready on the other side? Insurance.
Brit is offline  
Old March 17, 2014, 11:00 PM   #72
cgjohnst
Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2014
Location: Clovis, NM
Posts: 35
Of course it's an "unintentional discharge" when the police do it lol...


Imo, the distances for police don't really correlate well to a self-defense distance for the average citizen. Police have their rules on how they set themselves up in preparation of shootings. These shootings are when a burglar breaks into a home and gets shot in the hallway or when a murderer tries to take your life in a parking garage. The shooting situations are vastly different.
cgjohnst is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12345 seconds with 7 queries