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Old February 9, 2014, 06:29 PM   #76
manta49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJSchulze
...And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot....
I think people should have the sense to know the instructor was talking rubbish without being told. Every situation is different requiring a different response, If an instructor is teaching that then he shouldn't be instructing , in case someone takes him at his word and shoots when they didn't need to. Example you pull your firearm , the bad guy runs shoot him anyway, he puts his hands up shoot him , etc.

Last edited by manta49; February 9, 2014 at 06:38 PM.
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Old February 9, 2014, 10:05 PM   #77
Vermonter
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Awesome

Couldn't have asked for a better outcome.
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Old February 10, 2014, 11:08 AM   #78
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GJSchulze Wrote;
Quote:
That's sort of saying the same thing, but with a different slant.
No Sir, it is a different statement entirely. When you attempt to parse a statement, it loses context, Let's review the Counselors statement in context.

Frank Ettin Wrote;
Quote:
In general you should not draw your gun unless you've concluded that shooting is immediately necessary and justified.
Meaning there is a clear, and present danger, you are in fear of death, or grave injury, the attack at that time is imminent. Mr. Ettin then went on to qualify his statement with information that added the needed context.

Frank Ettin Wrote;
Quote:
But the situation can change quickly upon presentation of your gun, and it's possible that once you have presented your gun the situation may have changed to the point that immediately shooting is not necessary, nor could it be justified.
As Frank added, these situations are not "black and white" they are dynamic by nature. In the case of the OP, the threat ceased to be a threat once he was "menaced" (your term ) into a hasty retreat.

While at first the threat was clear, and drawing and being prepared to fire was immediately necessary and justified, the dynamic of the situation changed immediately. Once the attacker retreated, the threat, and thus the justification for firing, both disappeared.

GJSchulze Wrote;
Quote:
my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot
Had our OP followed this "sketchy" advice he likely would have fired in an un-justifiable manner and, have a world of legal troubles at the moment.
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Old February 10, 2014, 03:04 PM   #79
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Quote:
By the OP;

By the time I decided to reach for my gun, he was only 3 feet away. I gripped my 9mm Beretta Nano that I carried inside the waist band. He noticed and immediately stopped. Now he was about 2 feet away.

He asked me if I wanted to shoot him. All I said was get away from me, get away from my family. I learned that when the adrenaline is pumping, I didn't watch his face, I watched his chest - his heart. I was prepared to draw and shoot. Thankfully, he didn't come any closer and I didn't have to draw.
Gentlemen, the OP never drew his handgun.
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Old February 10, 2014, 03:06 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJSchulze
...And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot....
And although this is all GJSchulze gave us in his post, I would say it's a fair bet that this wasn't the only thing he had to say and that in one way or another we are taking it out of context. This horse never needed a beatin.
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Old February 10, 2014, 03:24 PM   #81
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I'm glad everything is fine. Happened for a reason, you starting to carry and your curiosity to looking into this forum.

Next time (God forbid) don't go to your intended area or residence. Police station. Or phoning the police and keep driving.

You did great though, you didn't know. It's easy to say this and that after the fact. That isn't what I did though. Just a different course that doesn't come to mind when your nerves are shot.

Also, don't worry about feeling sick and shaky. Happens to most people. I've thrown up before after extreme stress long after all is clear. Really proud of you.
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Old February 10, 2014, 03:35 PM   #82
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What the others have said.

Any encounter you walk away from is an acceptable encounter. In this case you learned some lessons and will be better prepared in the future.

Don't leave home unarmed. In today's society, you simply never know what may happen next.

Well done.
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Old February 13, 2014, 10:03 PM   #83
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Quote:
I can't speak for all areas of the USA, but in my metro area, calling 911 first or being the first person to speak to a responding officer/deputy does not make you the victim or complainant. I've seen it first hand not only as a citizen but as a on duty security officer responding to a call for service.
Here's some additional information from an attorney on the importance of calling the police, and doing so as rapidly as possible.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/02/repo...w-enforcement/

The article is primarily focused on why it's important to call to report an incident, even when the initial impulse might be to walk away since it was resolved with no shots fired. However, the general principles also apply to the idea of why it can be important to report the incident before the other participant does.
"Because it was the dirt bag who called the police, in both their official reports and in their practical worldview, it is now HE who is the “complainant” of a crime—the presumed “offended party”–and YOU who are the “respondent”—the presumed offending party."
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Old February 13, 2014, 10:25 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Quote:
I can't speak for all areas of the USA, but in my metro area, calling 911 first or being the first person to speak to a responding officer/deputy does not make you the victim or complainant. I've seen it first hand not only as a citizen but as a on duty security officer responding to a call for service.
Here's some additional information from an attorney on the importance of calling the police, and doing so as rapidly as possible.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/02/repo...w-enforcement/

The article is primarily focused on why it's important to call to report an incident, even when the initial impulse might be to walk away since it was resolved with no shots fired. However, the general principles also apply to the idea of why it can be important to report the incident before the other participant does.
"Because it was the dirt bag who called the police, in both their official reports and in their practical worldview, it is now HE who is the “complainant” of a crime—the presumed “offended party”–and YOU who are the “respondent”—the presumed offending party."


Also, folks should realize that that flight, which could include simply leaving the scene without reporting the incident, can be used as evidence of guilt. Here's what some cases say:

  • State v. Walker, 595 P.2d 1098 (Kan., 1979), at 1099 - 1100:
    Quote:
    ...the general rule that evidence of flight may be admissible in order to establish the defendant's consciousness of guilt. 29 Am.Jur.2d, Evidence § 280; 22A C.J.S. Criminal Law § 625; ...
    ...
    It is well settled that conduct of the accused following the commission of an alleged crime may be circumstantially relevant to prove both the commission of the acts charged and the intent and purpose for which those acts were committed. Among such conduct is flight of the accused...
  • State v. Quiroz, 772 N.W.2d 710 (Wis. App., 2009), at 716:
    Quote:
    ...It is well established that evidence of flight has probative value as to guilt. See State v. Knighten, 212 Wis.2d 833, 838-39, 569 N.W.2d 770 (Ct.App.1997). Analytically, flight is an admission by conduct. State v. Miller, 231 Wis.2d 447, 460, 605 N.W.2d 567 (Ct.App.1999). The fact of an accused's flight is generally admissible against the accused as circumstantial evidence of consciousness of guilt and thus of guilt itself....
  • State v. Robinson, 360 S.C. 187 (S.C. App., 2004), at 195:
    Quote:
    ...See also State v. Beckham, 334 S.C. 302, 315, 513 S.E.2d 606, 612 (1999) (stating that evidence of flight has been held to constitute evidence of guilty knowledge and intent); State v. Grant, 275 S.C. 404, 407, 272 S.E.2d 169, 171 (1980) ("[A]ttempts to run away have always been regarded as some evidence of guilty knowledge and intent.") (internal quotation marks omitted); State v. Ballenger, 322 S.C. 196, 200, 470 S.E.2d 851, 854 (1996) (noting that flight is "at least some evidence" of defendant's guilt); State v. Thompson, 278 S.C. 1, 10-11, 292 S.E.2d 581, 587 (1982), .... (finding evidence of flight admissible to show guilty knowledge, intent, and that defendant sought to avoid apprehension); State v. Freely, 105 S.C. 243, 89 S.E. 643 (1916) (declaring the flight of one charged with a crime has always been held to be some evidence tending to prove guilt);...
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Old February 14, 2014, 03:46 PM   #85
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On the TV news today there was coverage of the Jacksonville, FL trial of the man who is alleged to have shot into a car full of teenagers because of loud music (although he says he was threatened by what appeared to be a shotgun). The TV personality/lawyers on the show were asking, "If his story is true, why didn't he call the police? Why did he leave the scene?"

Not a lawyer and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but it seems to me that even if you aren't automatically the good guy for phoning it in, doing so at least quashes such questions about the veracity of your story.
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Old February 14, 2014, 05:27 PM   #86
lcpiper
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Quote:
By TailGator;
...doing so at least quashes such questions about the veracity of your story.
I wouldn't go so far as to say this, but you you shouldn't get asked these questions.
Quote:
Why didn't he call the police?
Why did he leave the scene?
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Old February 14, 2014, 08:35 PM   #87
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Quote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say this, but you you shouldn't get asked these questions.
Quote:
Why didn't he call the police?
Why did he leave the scene?
I would add one more question to the list that you don't want to be asked:

Why did he wait so long to call the police?
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Old February 15, 2014, 02:54 PM   #88
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I tell everyone that you should not let anyone get closer then 5 yards from you. Preferably you want the hostile person as far away as possible but within 5 yards becomes the no-fly zone. At 2 feet the attacker could have taken the pistol away from you.

When someone is getting close you yell at them commands "Get back! Dont come closer!" When you perceive a person is a clear and present danger to yourself then you draw and aim the weapon accordingly yelling commands. "Stop or I will fire" "Get back or I will fire!" "Turn around and get back!" At the same time of drawing the weapon you want to increase distance from the hostile person preferably getting behind cover. Always use every opportunity to retreat back not forwards.

If they continue the charge into the no-fly zone then decisions have to be made. If you fire then you can expect litigation and charges against yourself as well as bad press ruining your reputation. If you dont fire then the pistol might be taken away and used against you.

The moral of the story is to do whatever you can to prevent a confrontation. Each situation is different in that regard, but do whatever you can to prevent it. The use of a firearm on a person should be as a last resort and it should be obvious to all why it was used. Only in circumstances of clear and present danger. You should be able to articulate what steps you took to try to prevent the encounter such as yelling at the man to stop, trying to retreat away, etc. It should be clear and obvious there was nothing else that you could do.

Dealing with the police on any firearms related matter alone is not a good idea. You should preferably deal with police through an attorney even if you are confident what you did was right. I know I will get a lot of contrary advice objecting to that statement, but my opinion is its a good idea to deal with police through attornies. Thats what they are there for. They protect our rights and the police should be dealt with through a legal representative. Right next to your ccw permit should be the business card to an attorney. Right after you call the police then you call the attorney. Dont just train at the range but train for the court room. Just my two cents.

Last edited by johnelmore; February 15, 2014 at 03:06 PM.
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Old February 15, 2014, 06:59 PM   #89
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Wow, glad it all worked out.

I'm not offering critiques. Others have done a great job at suggestions.

Continue to train and be vigilant, and get your wife on board with training and carrying for these same reasons. Women are particularly vulnerable.

Continue to play out scenarios. For most Americans, driving accidents and road rage are the most dangerous daily situations we put ourselves in. Plan this out. Defensive driving skills are very important. Always try to have situational awareness and give yourself room to maneuver in your car.

I see very angry people on the road all the time and try to get away from these folks, and also play out scenarios if they follow me or worse...

Glad you were able to defend yourself and family.
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Old February 17, 2014, 09:40 PM   #90
wayneinFL
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Quote:
Why did he leave the scene?
This could be easily rebutted with, "because someone was trying to kill me."

Of course, you should be running to a phone booth, not calling police the next day... Michael Dunn's story is like Chappaquiddick with a gun.
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Old February 17, 2014, 10:57 PM   #91
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Get training ASAP to remove doubt about when you can act and what you need to.

1) Any two day defensive handgun course.
2) Craig Douglas' ECQC course.

You will learn how to create space and how to handle a close range situation in ECQC.

Last edited by tomrkba; February 17, 2014 at 11:04 PM.
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Old February 18, 2014, 01:42 PM   #92
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splinter MBA,

Just read your post at the top.

GOOD JOB.

Yes mistakes were made but hey, it is never perfect on the street.

But you had the weapon accessible, you saw the danger, and made a good move.

And your learning curve just went up 10x and you will be wiser if there is a next time.

Yes a 9mm Nano in the hand beats a 1911 or Glock 20 in the gun safe.

Happy no one was hurt and yes calling the cops was a good move to!

Say, maybe you will get to take a course from Massad Ayoob. He's the real deal.

Anyway, well done!

Deaf
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Old March 29, 2014, 03:36 PM   #93
106RR
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You did well to survive, many do not, many more spend the rest of their lives in a nursing home. We carry Fox or DPS pepper spray for intermediate situations. Glocks for keeps. I would call It in as a road rage incident while driving. This is for liability protection not any expectation of police intervention.
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Old March 29, 2014, 04:33 PM   #94
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All in all, good job I say. I wouldn't have stopped at my intended location, but I wasn't there so will not armchair warrior.

I too would be out of the car facing the threat. Too vulnerable sitting in the car with the attacker able to approach from any side, and if he is armed with a firearm, you and your family are extremely vulnerable.

Care to share what load you were carrying in your Nano? I too am often carrying one.

Last edited by weldonjr2001; March 29, 2014 at 04:40 PM.
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