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Old February 5, 2014, 04:01 PM   #51
RBid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splinter MBA View Post
He just said it was the right thing to do.

There is a specific reason why I keep banging this drum.

A friend of mine was in a publicized incident where somebody tried to rob the shop while he was alone behind the counter. I'm not going into the specific contributors, but it is relevant to this conversation to say that he told me bluntly that he caught himself hesitating in the moment because of the Zimmerman case. During that period, he neglected to notice the knife the bad guy had out.

It is absolutely to all of our benefit to adopt a clear mode of operation before hand, so that we are not frozen in the moment.

Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy. That's it.
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Old February 5, 2014, 04:39 PM   #52
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I am glad you and your family are ok.

I wanted to point out that I believe being proactive is the right thing to do. In a situation that you are not trained in or given in depth thought about, sometimes an automated reaction is not there.

About 4 years ago, I was trying to diffuse a situation with a person. He was a small guy only slighly smaller than me and seemed very calm. He was giving me attitude slighly earlier and I was trying to calm him down. After I thought all was good and well, I went to shake his hand. At this point he grabbed my right hand while simultaniously grabbing a glass bottle, he apparently had in his back pocket. While shaking my hand he broke it across my head. (Trust me, they dont break like in the movies) This had totally dazed me and I saw the bottle come across my face. All I felt was warmth rushing down my face. He then came at me to stab me. All I could do, the only reaction I had was to shove him backwards and yell "STOP!" Honestly, had he not stopped and walked off right there, I dont know that I could have defended myself or survived his assault for that matter.

70 something stitches a centimeter away from my eye taught me to be prepared and always be proactive. Even working armed security, I have been surprised too many times. It takes too long to mentally click on what to do after you are already behind and being assaulted.
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Old February 5, 2014, 05:41 PM   #53
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Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy. That's it.
Depends upon State and Local laws: My state (and possibly others) also adds "Preclusion"- you had no other viable alternative to use of Deadly Force. This does not apply everywhere- you are not obliged to retreat from your home or lawful place of business ..... YMMV.
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Old February 5, 2014, 06:12 PM   #54
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Calling the police right away was VERY smart. I've heard more than once that LE tends to treat the first person who calls as the victim due to the automatic assumption that an innocent victim will immediately want the police to come to the scene while the culprit won't want a police presence.

Being on record as the one who called for emergency help is very good for a self-defense case. I don't think its value can be over-emphasized.

Space is your friend. Your car is generally a better way to create space than your feet.

I don't know what the laws are in your area, but in my state, a person would be justified in drawing/displaying a handgun under circumstances where the use of force would be justified by law. "Force" is a lower level of response than "deadly force".

Here's what TX says about displaying a weapon: "The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force."

When can you use force? According to TX law, "a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force." So if you reasonably believed that the other person was attempting to use unlawful force against you, you would have been justified in TX, in drawing your self-defense firearm.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u.../PE.9.htm#9.31
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Old February 5, 2014, 06:26 PM   #55
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Interesting stuff. I'm going to have to read Utah's laws again with this in mind.
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Old February 6, 2014, 08:30 AM   #56
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JohnKSa wrote;
Quote:
When can you use force? According to TX law, "a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force." So if you reasonably believed that the other person was attempting to use unlawful force against you, you would have been justified in TX, in drawing your self-defense firearm.
While John's advice is sound and, you should be familiar with your local laws concerning use of force and "brandishing" Do not let this confuse the issue.

In your situation, a reasonably larger man was closing distance between the two of you ( and your family ) rather quickly, he had already made his intentions known by his posture and demeanor, thus ; you have an obvious "disparity of force" already in motion. You could not retreat safely without leaving your family un-protected, the only reasonable response was to draw your firearm and, prepare to defend yourself. All those actions pass the "reasonable man" test. Even in a State that has "brandishing" laws, it is better to have performed as you did and, possibly had to explain yourself in court than to hesitate and become a potential victim. The guy saw that you meant business and broke off his attack, that is the most desirable outcome anyone could hope for IMHO.
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Old February 6, 2014, 01:57 PM   #57
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In my state, brandishing is "to wave weapon about, menacingly." Simply putting your hand on it defensively need not apply. Clearly though, the road-rager DID commit assault.
Also, I'd like to point out that whether he pulled the gun out or not, if his attacker saw it, he could lie and say the gun was drawn, or even that it was pointed at him (assault). It's better if the crook never saw it. (Yeah, he could still lie, but if the cop asks what the gun looks like, he has no idea.) And of the crook saw it, police need to know YOU are the victim.
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Old February 6, 2014, 03:24 PM   #58
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Wow, given some of the responses to the OP, I would not be surprised if next time his thread title is : "Your Advice Caused Me To Be Attacked"

Instead of reacting to the situation at hand, he may be standing around wondering... Am I "brandishing" if I draw ? Am I about to be the victim, or am I committing an "assault" ? Should I ? Would I ? Could I ? Meanwhile the BG is closing distance quickly !

Honestly splinter MBA, don't let all the Monday morning quarterbacking lead you into second-guessing yourself, obviously your response, and the outcome suggest you performed quite well under the given circumstances.

Knowing your State laws, and your own limitations however is never a bad thing.
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Old February 6, 2014, 04:16 PM   #59
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Besides, it's Monday evening.......and "your" team won!


AMEN.
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Old February 7, 2014, 09:30 AM   #60
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Wow, given some of the responses to the OP, I would not be surprised if next time his thread title is : "Your Advice Caused Me To Be Attacked"

Instead of reacting to the situation at hand, he may be standing around wondering... Am I "brandishing" if I draw ? Am I about to be the victim, or am I committing an "assault" ? Should I ? Would I ? Could I ? Meanwhile the BG is closing distance quickly !

Honestly splinter MBA, don't let all the Monday morning quarterbacking lead you into second-guessing yourself, obviously your response, and the outcome suggest you performed quite well under the given circumstances.
Obviously. But he asked for some feedback, and he's getting it. The point is not to get him to second guess himself when he's looking at the elephant, but to be better prepared for next time, so he doesn't second guess himself.
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Old February 7, 2014, 11:42 AM   #61
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LE contacts, 911 calls.....

I can't speak for all areas of the USA, but in my metro area, calling 911 first or being the first person to speak to a responding officer/deputy does not make you the victim or complainant. I've seen it first hand not only as a citizen but as a on duty security officer responding to a call for service.
Most 911 calls are recorded & time-date stamped. If you call, let the dispatcher know your exact location(mail address if you know it) & that you are armed or have a valid CCW/gun permit. This not only expedites the LE response, it will document that you are not a criminal or have criminal intent.
You also need to be aware of the responding officers/deputies side. They are going into a unsafe situation or are fully unaware of who or what is going on.
Try to remain calm & be able to assist the officers/first responders.
If you had a lethal force event you need to keep your civil rights & legal issues in mind.
That to me was one of GZ's big mistakes early on. He took the Sanford PD detectives at their word & volunteered a lot of information.
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Old February 7, 2014, 02:43 PM   #62
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(Stress Inoculation is one of the most important principles in surviving a threatening and/or lethal force encounter. It's also one of the hardest to simulate. This situation will work to your advantage because every time you experience something, the less it will effect you the next time)
Brian, this is so true! Having spent 5 years working on the door, at Liverpool UK Night Clubs, I have been involved in lots! Of fights.

First rule, you tend to win the ones you start! This might not be an American Rule, but was certainly a rule in Liverpool 1960-1965.

One thing I do not experience is the fear people talk about, or even the "Freezing" But just slide in to aggression, instantly. I am not from round here. Done this aggression stuff a lot.

You tend to instantly asses the threat! No weapons visible, how close are they?
More than one? Your position, physically. At 78 YOA, boxing is not happening!

The incident here, our Guy was on private property he had been invited to be, the other person, had not, was trespassing.

No way would I have stayed in the car, me out, lock doors (a button) slam door. Step to the front of my vehicle, a Jeep, pistol out, Glock 19, along side leg. Blue Tooth ear piece, press, say Police, and the phone calls 911.

Tell the Gentleman he is trespassing, leave now. It would then unfold as it would? Knowing the radio room would be recording every word, watch how I said, and what I said. Sorry not Radio room in the US, Dispatch.
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Old February 7, 2014, 03:00 PM   #63
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Smart911.com ...

This is why I advocate more US locations go with www.smart911.com . Citizens can add details or information to their local 911/LE agency & speed up responses.
The company that runs the service does not share or market the details & it cancels out after 6mo.
A LE officer who takes the call for service can have more details before they arrive.
Some cops I have talked to claim they can't get the unedited 911 calls to listen to at the scene, but in 2014 Id think there are software systems or LE only programs to let officers do it.

Clyde
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Old February 7, 2014, 04:11 PM   #64
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To the OP:

I can only hope any of us can handle a situation as well as you did.

You now know how you will react the next time.

In the end, you and your family are safe and you did your main purpose as a husband/father. PROTECT YOUR FAMILY.
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Old February 7, 2014, 05:01 PM   #65
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Jimboh247:

Thank you for your supportive comments. I'm just glad everything turned out ok.
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Old February 7, 2014, 08:47 PM   #66
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The "aggressive tailgater" is a very common incident. I myself have had to make the difficult decision that you are forced to make on impulse in regards to dealing with this particular situation. So many avenues that we have heard about in the past, "drive to a police station", "lock your doors, park the car, ready your weapon and call the police", "keep driving and call the police", etc.

There are so many variables to this situation that there is no universal answer for what specific actions to take. The best thing to do overall, is use good judgment.

1. A few years ago, I was in a Walmart parking lot, and turned into a lane with markings to drive opposite the direction I was driving, no one was in any danger, the lot was new, but an overzealous male driving a van saw this and began driving erratically behind my vehicle, honking his horn and attempting to wave me over. I drove to an empty part of the lot towards the back, and I noticed that there was a child most likely not many more than ten years old, sitting in the front passenger seat. The child looked scared. I made sure my doors were locked as the vehicle advanced. At the last minute, I pulled out of that lot and drove into another parking lot. I realized that even though my option of retreat was being blocked and there was a clearly ill intent (in the state I reside in, a firearm can be used to prevent or stop the commission of a felony), I had no witness. If I were to draw my weapon to ready, the only witnesses at that point were that boy, and a person who was most likely his father. I parked at a coffee shop and called my father, who was home a mile away. My father drove to where I was, and while he was en route I called the local police department. My father arrived, the other driver saw his truck pull up to my car, and that driver decided to leave. The right choice is the one that protects you, and whoever is with you.

2.In another situation similar, this time I was without a firearm. I was with a now ex-girlfriend and I was driving in an area I was unfamiliar with. An enraged driver began chasing us through a suburban townhouse complex around 10pm. I did the only thing I could think of: Broke every single traffic law I could, laying on the horn while doing so, in an effort to attract attention and hopefully generate a police call. At the beginning I had come to a stop as if to let the driver approach me, and when he ran towards the car I sped off... this didn't work well because [b]I was unfamiliar with the area". I was blowing stop signs at 50mph in residential zones and such. Finally I hopped a curb in front of gas station, jumped out, locked the doors and ran inside and yelled call the police. They did. For some reason, it appeared that a tactical unit was already out looking for this guy.

3. I was leaving work and pulled onto the highway, a car pulled up behind my truck and began immediately tailgating. I knew the vehicle, and the driver, he was a drug dealer who I later found out was harassing everyone because he thought someone he worked with had ratted him out to management for selling speed to other employees. I immediately pulled into an empty parking lot, drove fast towards the middle, retrieved a full size .357 from my glovebox, and stepped behind my truck, revolver out of view. The car stopped just outside the parking lot then they sped away as fast as they could.

Every situation has different variables. Who, what, when, why, where and how.

The advice I give to friends when this subject has come up, based on what I have personally experienced is as follows:

1. Get attention. Do whatever you can to draw attention to your situation. If you can safely run a red light and get pulled over, better to have a traffic fine than a force use situation. Driving to a police station has been mentioned, but consider driving to a public place like a strip mall or some place you know is open. You may know how to get to the police station in the city you live in, but what about 5 cities over? There may be a higher probability of you knowing how to get to a strip mall.


2. Find a tactical advantage. If you stop, and they get out, stay in your vehicle! they are now out of their vehicle, and you now have the option of putting the pedal to the metal and getting away from them. If you don't know know the area, stay on the main roads/highway/freeway. If you know an area, use that to your benefit.


3. Call the police as soon as you can. Choose your words carefully, you want your call prioritized. "I think I am being followed" will not get the same interest as "I am being chased, I am really scared". One thing to remember is that banks often have cameras that are monitored on live feed. Driving into a bank drive up is an easy way to get your situation put on camera.

4. Keeping a can of pepper spray around can change an entire situation. Pepper spray is at a different place in the standard use of force continuum, and generally doesn't need the same justification as using a firearm. I work in the private security industry and have to follow a use of force continuum, I am very much a proponent of using pepper spray.
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Old February 8, 2014, 03:48 AM   #67
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I don't see any section of NY Penal Code that would prohibit what the OP did. Preparing to defend yourself in the face of an obviously imminent assault is not illegal
Actually, that may not be correct, but it would be really hard to prove because the only witness is the aggressor and he would be confessing to chasing him. It's called menacing. What the other guy did could also be considered menacing. Revealing your gun by accident is not menacing, but it is if it's intentional. So you can shoot someone in self-defense, but you can't scare him. Go figure.
S 120.14 Menacing in the second degree.
A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:
1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person
in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death
by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to
be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm;
or
2. He or she repeatedly follows a person or engages in a course of
conduct or repeatedly commits acts over a period of time intentionally
placing or attempting to place another person in reasonable fear of
physical injury, serious physical injury or death; or
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Old February 8, 2014, 07:50 AM   #68
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GJSchulze wrote;
Quote:
Actually, that may not be correct, but it would be really hard to prove because the only witness is the aggressor and he would be confessing to chasing him. It's called menacing. What the other guy did could also be considered menacing. Revealing your gun by accident is not menacing, but it is if it's intentional. So you can shoot someone in self-defense, but you can't scare him. Go figure.

What the OP did was clearly not "menacing" by definition. The attack was imminent, The OP drew and, was prepared to fire on the would-be attacker. The BG ( wisely ) realized he had brought an inferior weapon to the fight and broke off the attack. The OP ( also wisely ) called LE immediately and faithfully described the incident.

The spirit of that law is to prohibit someone from using any weapon as an "idle threat" or for the purpose of "intimidation"

The take away is; Be the first to call LE and get the story straight.
Many States have similar laws ( IE; CA calls it "making terroristic threats" ) but, they are seldom invoked in a true self-defense situation IME.
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Old February 8, 2014, 08:01 AM   #69
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Thanks to the OP for describing what happened and glad you and your family are safe... and thanks for asking for comments... its allowed a lot of us to read and understand a lot from this moment to apply to our own understanding of the use or proposed use of deadly force.
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Old February 8, 2014, 10:13 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJSchulze
So you can shoot someone in self-defense, but you can't scare him. Go figure.
Well, that would be "defense of justification". Just like shooting someone is generally against the law but can be completely legal, so can be "menacing".
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Old February 8, 2014, 03:50 PM   #71
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What the OP did was clearly not "menacing" by definition. The attack was imminent
BY NYS penal code I would say that, by definition of the penal code, it is menacing. That statute does not mention any mitigating exceptions. Any "spirit of the law" is pretty much up to the LEO and legal people, not you.

However, as Brian pointed out
Quote:
defense of justification
is a mitigating circumstance under article 35. You have to prove that the other person is the initial aggressor to use this. Just like self defense, you have to prove that you were in imminent danger. The other guy could just claim something else and it would be his word against the OP's. I would suggest this is one reason that self defense without firing a shot is not reported very often because you are at the mercy of the LEO, so if you are now safe, why report it when nothing will be done?

But this didn't happen in NYS, so YMMV. And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot. Clearly there are circumstances under which you could show your gun to dissuade the person. I would prefer that, but if the person is close enough to reach you before you draw, you better shoot.
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Old February 8, 2014, 05:46 PM   #72
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Horn

I agree -no Monday morning QB, you did a fabulous job of protecting your family. You should be proud, You are not a victim!

Consider Car horns are great. Makes lots of people into witnesses even if it doesn't deter the attacker. You can have one hand on the gun and one on the horn even standing outside the car, but of course others will argue that could p**s him off more. No one can be right for the situation except you.

I'm not going to get into hand to hand combat, and that is what it is!

Great job.
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Old February 8, 2014, 09:28 PM   #73
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I am glad you and your family are all right.

The training company Shivworks has a course called Managing Unknown Contacts. MUC is all about how to talk to people in violent situations to hopefully keep it from becoming a fight/gun fight, while getting to or maintaining the most advantageous position you can manage.

I would suggest this. It is also part of any other course they teach. Check their schedule and see if they have any classes nearby. As far as I know Shivworks is the only group teaching this aspect of surviving a violent encounter.
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Old February 9, 2014, 12:59 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJSchulze
...And my shooting instructor said if you have to draw the gun, you should shoot....
And the is wrong.

In general you should not draw your gun unless you've concluded that shooting is immediately necessary and justified. But the situation can change quickly upon presentation of your gun, and it's possible that once you have presented your gun the situation may have changed to the point that immediately shooting is not necessary, nor could it be justified.
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Old February 9, 2014, 06:14 PM   #75
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In general you should not draw your gun unless you've concluded that shooting is immediately necessary and justified.
That's sort of saying the same thing, but with a different slant. The key is how long do you have to make the decision not to shoot? I think if you are taken unaware you either draw and shoot or don't draw. If you are paying attention so that you have some extra time, you can start your draw and determine if the BG is going to run.

While I've seen video's of training using Simunitions that put you in scenarios where you have a choice to react without shooting when it's possible, only a very few people get that kind of training.
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