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Old February 3, 2014, 08:54 PM   #26
born2climb
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If I think someone is following me, I NEVER go to where I was originally going, be it home, friend's or family's home. I will take a roundabout way to throw them off. Stopping invites confrontation.
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Old February 3, 2014, 09:20 PM   #27
Dragline45
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Had a similar situation.

I was driving down a 2 lane road, pulled into the left lane to pass, and the guy sped up and cut me off. I pulled back into the right lane, and there he goes again and cuts me off so I cant pass. I finally was able to pass him, and at an extremely high speed I might add, and he ended up following me. I pulled into a gas station after being followed for 5 minutes to see if he actually was following me, and he pulled up behind me in my parking space and blocked my exit. I locked my doors, cracked my window to see what he had to say, and grabbed my pistol and held it out of sight next to my right thigh. He proceeded to tell me I was driving like an A-hole, even though he was the one playing games not letting me pass, and said he was guna kick my ***. When he grabbed for my car handle, I pulled my pistol into sight and layed it on my lap, and told him if he didn't leave I would call the police. He then said "you are lucky my 3 year old daughter is in the car or I would kick your ***", and left. This really surprised me that one, he was driving so erratically and playing road games with his daughter in the car, and two, that he parked his car horizontally behind mine, leaving his 3 year old daughter in the car, and then proceeded to try to pick a fight with me. The fact that he would put his daughter in harm like that blew my mind.

Guys like this are scum, and are best left to rot in jail like the animals they are IMO.
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Old February 3, 2014, 09:38 PM   #28
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Some people take on a completely different persona when they get behind the wheel. In driving school they call that the "critical parent" personality. Dude thinks he's the best driver on the road and it's up to him to correct everyone else's driving "mistakes." He uses his vehicle as an instructional tool and it never occurs to him that he's the one that's endangering everyone else. If you pull in front of him he'll ride your bumper and flash his high beams to try and give you a driving lesson. Eventually he'll cause an accident and when the officer writes him up he'll think he's the one that's being mistreated. It really is a mental illness and a dangerous one at that. Dude's probably a perfectly nice guy when he isn't driving.
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Old February 3, 2014, 10:02 PM   #29
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OP don't be too hard on yourself about what you should have done. Every one of these situations ends up in mind review and I would think almost everyone says "Well, I should have done this or that." These things are never played perfectly. The point is you did what you thought was right at the time and you and your family are alive because of it. Good on ya. Learn from it and move on!

Last edited by baddarryl; February 3, 2014 at 10:43 PM.
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Old February 3, 2014, 10:22 PM   #30
Ricklin
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No Monday morning QB here

Besides, it's Monday evening.......and "your" team won!

Your TEAM WON. No need to rethink this. learn from it and move on.

Chalk up one for the good guys, thanks to your decision to carry full time.

You did good, enjoy that Cherry coke.
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Old February 4, 2014, 11:47 AM   #31
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" The past is where the lessons are learned. The future is where the lessons learned, are applied."
I heard this from a teacher long ago. It made sense then and makes sense now.
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Old February 4, 2014, 12:18 PM   #32
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You did right.

The first thing you did right was decide to carry. Don't let anyone second guess you for that.

The second thing you did right was not shoot him, although the choice was clearly his to make, not yours, when he was within arms length of you.

I would not have let him approach me inside my car, either. If he was armed, your family would be in the line of fire as well as you. Getting out was the right thing to do.

The third thing you did correctly was to call the police. Hopefully they will find this individual and arrest him. He needs to learn appropriate behavioral patterns.
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Old February 4, 2014, 12:48 PM   #33
born2climb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragline45
"I finally was able to pass him..."
Not criticizing how you handled it, but if I ever encounter an erratic driver, I want them IN FRONT of me. I can always slow, stop, turn off...once I'm in front of him, I lose the initiative. As to your encounter, I figure his daughter remark was an excuse to get out of an altercation. If he'd been as bad as he thought he was, her presence wouldn't have mattered. Glad it turned out okay though.
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Old February 4, 2014, 12:56 PM   #34
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To the OP...

Ya done good...You have lived it and now lived through it.
I know you have replayed this 1,000 times (X10) in your head but try to give yourself a much deserved kudo.

Honestly I guarantee you that there are a large percentage of people carrying that would have never pulled their weapon from being frozen with fear.
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Old February 4, 2014, 01:02 PM   #35
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I'm glad everything worked out well: You and your family were safe and you didn't have to shoot anyone. I did want to comment on one part of your post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by splinter MBA
Originally, I wanted to carry with a belly band, but I read here that carrying on the hip was a faster draw.
You can wear a belly band so your gun is on your hip. In fact, for most men's body types this is how it works best: When I wear a belly band, it sits less than an inch higher than the waistband of my pants and the gun is at the 3:30 - 4:00 position, just like when I carry with a regular IWB belt holster.

The advantage of a belly band is that you don't need to have a belt; I use mine when I'm wearing gym shorts or sweatpants. Also, it holds the gun tighter to your body than most IWB holsters and your shirt can be tucked in over it if needed. Another nice thing is that it keeps your undershirt from getting untucked. The disadvantage is that the gun is not held quite as securely as with a form-fit holster and it can be a little restricting on your lower stomach area. But it's still plenty secure; I can only imagine it falling out if I took a long tumble down a hill or something.
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Old February 4, 2014, 01:07 PM   #36
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Glad you and your family are safe.

Lot's of good advice above. I'd stop re-thinking the scenario b/c you've already grasped the weaknesses of your previous response: it's going to play out differently next time, b/c you are more experienced now.
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Old February 4, 2014, 02:13 PM   #37
splinter MBA
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I appreciate all the comments and support. I haven't told a lot of people about this incident because a lot of people don't know I carry, and I like it that way. It's good to hear from other people who know what it's like to carry, and know the responsibility.

I've learned a lot, but I think the biggest thing I learned was how I reacted to the fear. It was hard to snap myself out of the disbelief and take action rather than just stand their like an idiot.

Great comments.
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Old February 4, 2014, 02:17 PM   #38
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I've learned a lot, but I think the biggest thing I learned was how I reacted to the fear. It was hard to snap myself out of the disbelief and take action rather than just stand their like an idiot.
Stress Inoculation is one of the most important principles in surviving a threatening and/or lethal force encounter. It's also one of the hardest to simulate. This situation will work to your advantage because every time you experience something, the less it will effect you the next time. God forbid there IS a next time but, if there is, you'll be better able to handle it.

A few live fire training classes would do wonders for you too. As many as you have time, money and interest to take.
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Old February 4, 2014, 04:39 PM   #39
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Like the others, glad it worked out the best way it could have.

You know, being caught with your back to your own door might not have been as much of a mistake as you think. Yes you couldn't back up, yes you had your back to the wall.

Now understand that tactics are one thing, but both yours and your attacker's minds are working and they are working on an almost animal level, because no matter how much we try to fool ourselves, we are still animals.

When that guy saw you reach for what he recognized as a gun it put a whole new light on the situation. When you told him to get away from you and your family it reinforced that light.

He had you cornered, pinned against a wall, and you were no longer just some jerk on the road, you were cornered, protecting your family, and you were unsheathing your claws. Psychologically you were the classic cornered animal that he had no doubt was ready to fight with deadly force if pushed any further.

Tactics may govern the situation you have to fight in, but the psychological situation determines if you are even going to have a fight.

You did good. Yes you could do better. If you get really good, you won't ever have to fight at all.
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Old February 4, 2014, 07:35 PM   #40
wayneinFL
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Quote:
If you know they are angry and they are following you, don't lead them to your home or the home of someone else you know. Even if they drive on, they may decide to come back later to settle up. You get to pick the terrain for the confrontation - use that to your advantage. A gas station with video cameras to provide evidence maybe? Is a police station or court house nearby according to your nav system or smartphone?
I've suggested this myself- going to a police station. But for the sake of argument there have been people killed at police stations. For example, a young woman was chased into the Plantation, FL PD parking lot, and was murdered immediately, before police could respond.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/200...police-officer

Suppose there may not be the level of police protection you expect, and you have to use your firearm before the police can respond. Without knowing what happened, they will likely assume the guy shooting is the bad guy. This could hurt you legally as in the following story. Or the police might shoot you.

http://www.fox16.com/news/local/stor...Kk-HpcWLFtt1rg

If you go to a police station, it would definitely be a good idea to call police to let them know you're coming. Maybe they will be ready for you. If not, be ready to defend yourself, but make sure they know you're the good guy.
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Old February 4, 2014, 07:42 PM   #41
Bartholomew Roberts
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I've learned a lot, but I think the biggest thing I learned was how I reacted to the fear. It was hard to snap myself out of the disbelief and take action rather than just stand their like an idiot.
That is not an uncommon response. Probably related to some deep primal "Freeze and the lion won't see me!" urge I think.

As someone already mentioned, stress innoculation is very difficult to acquire in a training environment but well worth the time. I know some of the Force-on-Force I've done with Simunitions probably ranks as some of the most valuable training I've ever done. I still think about the lessons I learned there and I did some STUPID things.

You handled yourself well in a real world situation with real world consequences - and you were interested in handling the situation better after achieving one of the best possible outcomes in that scenario. So you deserve a lot of credit for all that... but in terms of risk management, you can do better. One of the great things about these forums is the ability to discuss actual scenarios and how they might have been handled better and form mental patterns to use so that you aren't deep in the middle of a tough situation and desperately digging through your brain to find some kind of answer that might help you.
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Old February 4, 2014, 11:32 PM   #42
chris in va
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Not real life of course but we go through a few scenarios in our matches. I've been pressing them to use the approaching rail target for a while, maybe at an angle.

One reason why I started carrying was a 'correcting parent' driver that felt my driving lights were not to his liking. Nerdy, geek looking guy followed me down I-66 one night, right into a brightly lit gas station. We called the cops while still on the road and we all had a little get together. I got reprimanded for my lights, he got a chewing out for stalking us.

I didn't have a permit yet but it was one of two reasons for getting it.

Oh, and incidents like this never make it to the news, but it happens thousands of times a year. They sure do capitalize on ____ that shoot up theaters and schools though.

Last edited by chris in va; February 4, 2014 at 11:40 PM.
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Old February 5, 2014, 11:44 AM   #43
btmj
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One thing that has not been commented on here (except post 32 by kilimanjaro) is the fact that you did not shoot.

What you did was commit assault, but it was so clearly justifiable that the officer was able to decide not to charge you... no arrest, no bail, no indictment, no trial, no REALLY EXPENSIVE lawyer bills, no missing year of your life (assuming you are acquitted).

Anytime someone can resolve a situation with justifiable assault (a threat to shoot) versus justifiable homicide, it is to their great advantage to do so. It is a lot easier to justify the threat of lethal force than it is to justify the application of lethal force.

Jim
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Old February 5, 2014, 12:50 PM   #44
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btmj
What you did was commit assault,

The exact definition may vary by jurisdiction but what the OP did certainly was not "assault" in NY law. All forms of assault in NY require physical harm.

I don't see any section of NY Penal Code that would prohibit what the OP did. Preparing to defend yourself in the face of an obviously imminent assault is not illegal.

Of course, neither NY law (nor your state laws unless you're in the same state as the OP) really applies here.
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Old February 5, 2014, 01:43 PM   #45
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Whether we want to call it 'justifiable assault' or 'toe jam seahorse', the important thing to key in on is that his actions were justified. His decision making applied the correct filter, and it had a happy ending.

Keep it simple. Make choices geared toward preserving well being. Sleep well at night.
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Old February 5, 2014, 02:23 PM   #46
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Wouldn't the closest thing to what the OP did be "brandishing"? Far cry from assault. I'm not saying it was brandishing, just saying IF the cop decided to try and screw him over, I feel like brandishing would be the closest thing to fit the bill.
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Old February 5, 2014, 03:24 PM   #47
splinter MBA
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One of the major reasons I called the police in this situation was because I didn't want the other guy to call the police first and tell them that I had brandished a firearm. I knew I was justified, but I wanted to be the first to call, just in case. The police officer told me that they grip their guns all the time without drawing. Just in case they do need to use lethal force. I asked him if it was considered brandishing, but he didn't really give me a straight answer. He just said it was the right thing to do.

I'm sure it would technically be considered brandishing, and under different circumstances I would be charged. In this case, I'm guessing it's justifiable brandishing (if that is a real term)
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Old February 5, 2014, 03:31 PM   #48
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
One of the major reasons I called the police in this situation was because I didn't want the other guy to call the police first and tell them that I had brandished a firearm.
Wise choice. You should contact the police at the first opportunity any time you have taken actions to stop or avoid an attack. Every time, no matter what.

"Brandishing" is illegal. If you were legally justified in your actions, you were not "brandishing" in that sense. Just because someone knows you have or sees your firearm doesn't automatically mean "brandishing". For some reason, that word seems to have become a catch-all for any time someone else knows or sees or you touch your gun.

Many states don't even use the term nor concept of brandish(ing).
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Old February 5, 2014, 03:50 PM   #49
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Glad everyone is Ok.

I had a similar incident a while ago. I just calmly kept driving around a neighborhood like I was lost till the guy got tired of following and he took off.


Always stay in the vehicle if you can. You may want to incorporate vehicle training into your practice routine; I.E using your left hand to get your seatbelt off and clearing your shoulder. I do this now without thinking about it. Drawing and clearing the wheel and etc.
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Old February 5, 2014, 03:55 PM   #50
Stevie-Ray
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Quote:
Wouldn't the closest thing to what the OP did be "brandishing"? Far cry from assault. I'm not saying it was brandishing, just saying IF the cop decided to try and screw him over, I feel like brandishing would be the closest thing to fit the bill.
In my state, brandishing is "to wave weapon about, menacingly." Simply putting your hand on it defensively need not apply. Clearly though, the road-rager DID commit assault.
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Last edited by Stevie-Ray; February 5, 2014 at 04:03 PM. Reason: typo
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