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Old February 2, 2014, 01:59 PM   #1
Clevinger
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308 Winchester: Why So Popular for Long Range?

It seems like the 308 Winchester has a fixed spot for long-distance work. Why is that? Is it just ultra-accurate?

Doesn't it drop more than say, a 30-06?
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Old February 2, 2014, 02:01 PM   #2
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The topic has been discussed recently. Do a search. The main take away is: Alot of it has to do with less recoil and quality of components for the 308. Short action is also a desired trait.
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Old February 2, 2014, 02:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
It seems like the 308 Winchester has a fixed spot for long-distance work. Why is that? Is it just ultra-accurate?
It's a very accurate cartridge. Arguably more accurate than the .30-06, but only measurable if you're an expert shooter already shooting sub MOA groups. Even then, the difference is small but that difference to a shooter doing .3 MOA groups, in a competition, could be significant. TO a hunter or casual target shooter, it's VERY unlikely you'd be able to tell the difference in accuracy, between the two cartridges, if you could hypothetically have completely identical rifles, with ONLY the cartridge being different. Unfortunately, this is the real world and you'll almost never see those conditions. The point is, the difference in accuracy is relatively small and likely un-noticeable to a majority of shooters.
Quote:
Doesn't it drop more than say, a 30-06?
Yes, but long range shooters typically don't care much about drop, as long as it's reasonable. All it involves is knowing the distance you're shooting and dialing in the optics for the range. The .30-06 would need to be dialed in as well, the only difference is the .308 need a touch more drop dialed in for a particular range. Not really a game changer. If it was all about flatness more people would be using .300 win mag, .270 Winchester, or 6.5mm magnums. Cartridges with less time of flight will also spend less time in the wind, and therefore, drift less. This usually means more recoil, because more force is needed to push the same amount of mass, at a faster speed, out of the barrel. Accuracy, drop and wind drift, don't matter if you're flinching so much that you can't make accurate shots.

Do I believe that .308 is the ultimate, 'do it all' long range cartridge? No. But it's good at what it does. It's at about the max level of recoil that most shooters are comfortable with, bullets have decent BC's, especially once you get over 180 grains and the cartridge is efficient for what it does. Can't really go wrong with a .308 but IMO there are better choices depending on what/how you're shooting and how much recoil you can handle.
I think one of the biggest factors with long range shooting seems to be recoil. When you're spending the whole day at the range, practicing, you could develop a sore shoulder or a flinch from a high recoil cartridge. Personally, I don't think .308 win or .30-06 are big kickers, but some people will disagree.

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Old February 2, 2014, 03:51 PM   #4
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It replaced the 30-06 as the military cartridge. That's the likely main reason. And it's a bit more accurate, so they say. If the long range guys had chosen a caliber purely on the merits of the cartridge, would they have chosen the 308? I doubt it.
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Old February 2, 2014, 06:12 PM   #5
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It does everything it's asked to do well, and because it's a US/NATO military cartridge - with consequent bleed-over into civilian target work - and has remained in front-line service for quite some time, it has had a HUGE amount of research work (both amateur and professional, civilian and military) thrown behind making it even more accurate.

You will always find a niche cartridge that will do something better at the extreme ragged edge of performance demands, but it's a harder task to find a better all-rounder (or more to the point, one that's still being given the same level of development support). Nearest I can think of in the Western context is the .50 BMG, but that's in such a different class as regards its utilisation and the sort of firearms which chamber it that direct comparison seems unwise.
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Old February 2, 2014, 06:25 PM   #6
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rifle gets to be lighter with 308 less recoil.
easy to get a 308 match chamber then a 30-06 match chamber.
its what government agencies use, so you just know it has to be sooooo good.....
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Old February 2, 2014, 06:35 PM   #7
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I think one of the big things also is it's ability to shoot so many different weight bullets so accurate with so many different powders. It is one of the easiest rifles to load for.
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Old February 2, 2014, 06:48 PM   #8
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I think one of the largest reason's is it's military adoption, ammo is hugely plentiful. Now that said it's a very very accurate cartridge, has extremely good barrel life, and loads of data to work with to the point it's simple to load for. Add to the fact that it's great to learn windage with it's even more appealing. It is low recoil compared to some rounds but after a 100rds or so i start to fatigue some with my .308. Running a max load of 178s starts to wear on you.

I'll never forget when i started long range precision shooting, i didn't want to touch a .308 was all hooked on the 6.5s etc. Bought one and fell in love with it. Idk i love a good .308.

Still switching to a 6.5CM for my main rig but my .308 will be cut to 18".
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Old February 2, 2014, 07:30 PM   #9
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In NRA matches that don't require a 308 others are winning so 308 seem to be only accurate were there is no competition.

Sure 308 replaced the 30-06 but when shooters are given a choice their others just as accurate. There is NRA match results so it's just not my opinion.

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Old February 2, 2014, 08:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Doesn't it drop more than say, a 30-06?
As a target round that is irrelevant, to a point. If you are shooting at known ranges you just adjust your sights for that range. As a hunting round flatter trajectory helps make up for slight errors in range estimation.

More muzzle velocity will keep the bullets stable for a longer distance at extreme range, but 308 and 30-06 are in reality quite close. A 308 will still be stable to at least 1,000 yards. A 30-06 might give you an extra 50 yards.

For hunters, who only shoot 1-3 times at a typical game animal added recoil isn't too hard to overcome. A 308, from equal weight rifles is going to recoil about 25% less. After 100 rounds, that difference means less fatigue for the shooter and probably better accuracy because of it.
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Old February 2, 2014, 11:59 PM   #11
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I set up a target 308 rem700/BCstock/vortex because I thought 308 was the ultimate way to go. I think it's popular because the military uses it and it is a great choice and seems to be the jack of all trades caliber. It has a lot of advantages but upon further reading and if I really want to take it to the next level I'll get a .260/7mm/08/6.5 or something similar (theres more accurate calibers but I also hunt with my target rifle sometimes). There's just a huge selection of powders, bullets, and barrel life is said to be very long on a 308 compared to a lot of the other cartridges. I admit I really thought I was getting the premier target caliber, too. I probably would have continued to believe that had I not gotten into reloading. Now there's so many options I had never considered before! I thought I knew a lot about guns but I only discovered the other half when I started reloading.
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Old February 3, 2014, 12:07 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Roper
In NRA matches that don't require a 308 others are winning so 308 seem to be only accurate were there is no competition.

Sure 308 replaced the 30-06 but when shooters are given a choice their others just as accurate. There is NRA match results so it's just not my opinion
Who stated otherwise? Out of the top shooters in the nation there are very few running .308, if any.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1SJge4xO_s

Top practical rifle shooters in the nation and only 4 .308s which is still surprising honestly.
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Old February 3, 2014, 12:20 AM   #13
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The OP question was, It seems like the 308 Winchester has a fixed spot for long-distance work. Why is that? Is it just ultra-accurate?


Only place I know that shoot 308 LR is NRA matches.
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Old February 3, 2014, 02:13 PM   #14
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7.62 NATO and .308 Win's are used in competition these days as follows:

* NRA high power matches' service rifle divisions, along with .30-06 or 5.56 NATO; whatever the competitor wants to use. They're also allowed in match rifle divisions.

* NRA F-Class in divisions where allowed.

* CMP sanctioned matches with M1A and M1 rifles.

* NRA Palma rifle matches wherein the .308 Win. is specified.

* NRA long range matches allowing any rifle to be used.

* International Palma Matches where only the .308 Win./7.62 NATO round's allowed.

The .308 began dropping out of favor in the early 1990's for most NRA matches as better bullets were finally available in 28, 26, and 24 caliber. Those smaller, lighter bullets bucked the wind about as good, tested equally as accurate but easier to shoot accurate due to less recoil while the bullet goes down the barrel. They produced the best scores on bullseye targets from 1963 to the mid 1990's. Accuracy wise, in equal quality rifles and ammo compared in pristine conditions, they're as accurate as any other long range cartridge used in competition these days. The best .308's shot under 3 inches at 600 and under 6 to 7 inches at 1000 yards 50 years ago . Nothing's changed these days.

.223's and 5.56 NATO rounds were tried at long range in service rifles, but they never shot the good scores as often as the 7.62 ones did. Especially when compared in the NRA and CMP service rifle matches where the 7.62 NATO round is still preferred.
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Old February 4, 2014, 10:25 AM   #15
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.223's and 5.56 NATO rounds were tried at long range in service rifles, but they never shot the good scores as often as the 7.62 ones did. Especially when compared in the NRA and CMP service rifle matches where the 7.62 NATO round is still preferred.
The Long Range High Power/Service Rifle is 1000 yards. That extra 400 yards is where the 308 picks up a ballistic advantage over the 223. The 223 is equal to the 308 at least out to 600 yards for a standard High Power course of fire.

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Old February 4, 2014, 11:29 AM   #16
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In short, things are popular because they have some combination of:

1)They're heavily promoted.

2)They're "cool".

3)They work exceptionally well.

.308 has the first two in spades, as far as folks are interested in using what the military uses. It's self-promoting and automatically "cool" and then popularized further by the folks who choose to use it because THEY think it's cool and folks think THEY'RE cool... etc, etc. Number 3, it probably has too, depending on your requirements, perspective and ability.

However, "popular" doesn't automatically include #3. In fact, a lot of times there are things that are actually pretty poor in function but #1 and #2 over whelm #3. As a particular example, consider the most popular trends in the archery industry. Virtually every one of them is detrimental to accuracy but they're all far more popular and "cool" than the best accuracy stuff.
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Old February 4, 2014, 12:17 PM   #17
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In NRA matches that don't require a 308 others are winning so 308 seem to be only accurate were there is no competition.
Isn't that like saying your Chevy will only stay in its lane if there are no other cars on the road?

One other reason the .308 has such a dominant place (in numbers of users) is that it is the one cartridge that a beginner can learn on, and will carry him/her all the way up to top level competition. Until the shooter's skill reaches a point where they can actually get a useful advantage from other rounds, using one only gets the shooter more cost and usually recoil, compared to the .308.

Before the recent ammo price balloon, the .308 was also reasonably cheap.

Also today there are literally dozens of off the shelf rifles set up to essentially rival the match guns of 50 years ago. A lot of work and thought has gone into the guns, just for long range shooting.

Look at the advice, just here on the boards, when a new shooter asks about getting into long(er) range shooting, they get buried by (well meaning) advice to "get a .308". And its not bad advice.

In an imperfect analogy, but one I still thing applicable...
Race car drivers don't start out in Formula One cars. people with their learner's permit don't practice in nitro fueled rail dragsters...

Some people jump into the deep end in order to learn how to swim. While this often works, sometimes, some of those people drown.

The .308 isn't the ultimate long range round, but its the best one for people to learn on, will serve them quite well until you reach the peak levels of competition, and has a vast support structure in terms of gun and ammo research and development.
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Old February 4, 2014, 01:17 PM   #18
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Brian's comment:
Quote:
However, "popular" doesn't automatically include #3. In fact, a lot of times there are things that are actually pretty poor in function but #1 and #2 over whelm #3.
Once upon a time, a guy showed up at a 1000 yard match allowing "any" rifle to be used. He brought his brand new.300 Weatherby Magnum factory hunting rifle and a couple boxes of Weatherby ammo. We helped him get on paper with his sighters. It was all he could do to keep most of his 20 scoring shots on the 6-foot square target paper.

I loaned him my .30-.338 match rifle and ammo to shoot the "High-Low" team match with me and he kept all 20 record shots inside the 30" 9 ring; fifteen went inside they 20" ten-ring.

44Amp, I don't think Old Roper's saying a Chevy will only stay in its lane if there are no other cars on the road. He's saying (in his own words) that in matches where different cartridges are allowed, some are producing better scores that the .308 does shooting against them. And I agree with him 150%. That's been happening since the late 1990's. I've said the same thing different ways, too.

Regarding:
Quote:
Also today there are literally dozens of off the shelf rifles set up to essentially rival the match guns of 50 years ago.
I disagree.

Name one that'll keep 30 to 40 consecutive shots inside 3 inches at 600 yards. Or 7 inches at 1000 yards.

However, if you are referring to arsenal built National Match M1's in .30-06 with M72 match ammo as "match guns of 50 years ago," there are a few off the shelf rifles these days that'll keep all their shots inside 25 inches with good ammo at 1000 yards just like they do.
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Old February 4, 2014, 02:23 PM   #19
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Bart B.

This is a list of off the shelf rifles I could come up with off the top of my head...

Savage Palma, Savage F/TR, Remington Sendero, Tikka T3 Tactical, Accuracy Internation AW, Sako TRG-22 and TRG-42, Savage BA110, Knights Armement SR-25, Remington M24, Springfield M1A supermatch, Prairie Gun Works Timberwolf, Remington XM2010, Tubb 2000, Howa/WbyVanguard SubMOA, Winchest M70 Stealth, FN SPR A1, DPMS LR-308.

I think that if you want an off the shelf rifle to shoot 1k, there are a lot better options out there now than there were 50 years ago.

As far as cheap hunting rifles being used at 1K, there are a lot more people talking about it than doing it, although there is one guy shooting F Class with a stock Savage Axis. It is his first rifle, so eventually he will upgrade, but for now he's having fun and learning to read the wind.

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Old February 4, 2014, 03:00 PM   #20
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Jimro, good list of rifles. And you're right, there are a lot better options out there now than there were 50 years ago. Same with commercial ammo.

But I'm probably out of vogue thinking "off the shelf" means what can be bought at 95% or more of traditional sporting goods stores selling rifles. Some in your list aren't seen there. One of them's the only one on that list that I think would keep 30 to 40 consecutive shots inside 3 inches at 600 yards. Or 7 inches at 1000 yards. And then only with proper handloads sized to work in that Tubb 2000 (I don't consider that an off-the-shelf rifle. If one looks at what's on the shelf of a custom shop building things that win matches, then that's different.

The Savage ones are my pick of that litter you listed as probably the best qualified ones to start long range with. Folks stand a decent chance of getting one that's a tack driver.
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Old February 4, 2014, 03:08 PM   #21
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I saw a Savage Palma rifle for sale in the PX last year. I had a "omg!" moment and had to resist pulling out the gold card to take it home with me. I'm going to try to stick with the traditional High Power course of fire to hone my wind reading skills before moving on to something like Palma or F Class.

You know it is crazy, but I think about the sport of High Power Match Rifle 50 years ago, and folks competing with customized 30-06's or 308 bolt action rifles on M70 actions and somehow it seems more impressive the ones that made it to High Master. I think if I were going to go the bolt action match rifle route in that era I would have chosen a lighter recoiling cartridge like the 6.5 Swede (which was dominating the 300 meter Free Rifle competitions until the 168 SMK was released).

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Old February 4, 2014, 03:20 PM   #22
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Jimro, everyone would have gone to smaller calibers than 30 back then if the rules allowed it. That began in the early 1970's when service rifles included the 22 caliber M16 and their offspring started winning everything 300 yards and less. A few years later the 22's with heavy bullets took home most of the marbles awarded for scores up through 600 yards.

Some years ago, I talked with Henry Cross, the NRA's International Shooting "man," about the 6.5 Swede cartridge used at 300 meters. His comments were that it would have been nice if heavy 26 caliber bullets could be made as precise as 30 caliber ones so they would buck the wind better than the 26 caliber ones used at the time. And Norma's 139-gr. nickel plated FMJBT .264" bullet was the best made at the time evidenced by all the European's liking it for their biathlon and free rifles used at 300 meters. It was the best wind bucking, tack driving, light recoiling bullet made until 1958. That's when Sierra came out with their 30 caliber 168 International bullet that shot more accurate with the same recoil from .308 cases than the Swede did with Norma's bullet.

It wasn't until the 1980's that the 30 caliber rule was dropped for NRA match rifles and any caliber 8mm or smaller could be used (or something like that). That's when really good bullets under 30 caliber could be had heavy enough to shoot well past 300 yards. .243's, 6XC's, 6.5x.308's and 7-08's infiltrated the firing lines. And the 6.5x.284 pushed the 30 caliber magnums out of favor when any rifle was allowed.

Off the shelf, kind of...... Years ago, I saw an Anschutz 1413 free rifle (with all accessories) in a pawn shop with a $3295.00 price tag on it. I knew the owner and asked him what he paid for it. $900 was his answer. He sold it a month later.
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Old February 4, 2014, 06:14 PM   #23
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After a match I was sitting across the restaurant table from a shooting bud whose skills I really respect. He has placed second or third during Highpower at Camp Perry and has won the Wimbleton 1000 yard match.

I asked him his opinion on the 308 and 30-06 at 600 yards. He had gone through a 30-06 phase and while he had shot 200’s with the 30-06, he was never able to get his X count above 10, while with the 308, I was his scorer and remember X counts above 15. As for a 1000 yard rifle, he thought the extra 150 fps you can get out of a 30-06 might make a positive difference but he had never tried.

As for myself, so far, my best 600 yard scores have been with the 308. I only have one target 30-06 and it is a hard rifle to shoot well. Kicks something horrible for one thing and stock weld is not the best. I have not shot a 200 yet, but I have shot 198’s and 199’s with good X counts with my 308's. At 1000 yards, my wind reading abilities are such, I might as well be throwing rocks. It is very frustrating to watch the bullet go from a seven or eight on the left, to a seven or eight on the right. Might have been 6’s for all I know. I don’t want to remember, it is that bad.
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Old February 7, 2014, 11:17 AM   #24
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Times do change got to look at what's winning beside 308

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Old February 7, 2014, 04:58 PM   #25
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That's pretty good shooting from rests using scopes and big 30 caliber cartridges in 20-pound rifles whose heavy bullets buck the wind very well. All but about 14 of the 180 shots went inside the 10 inch ten ring and 104 shots went in the 5 inch X ring. They're holding an aiming area of 1/20th MOA or smaller.

The Palma course team record with .308's, 3.5-pound triggers and metallic sights on 13-pound rifles slung up in prone with those two target rings twice as big is 1796-119X. Aiming area for these people is about 5/8th MOA. And they're using 155-gr. bullets, too.

Different strokes for different folks.
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