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Old February 3, 2014, 05:31 PM   #76
Stevie-Ray
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Sorry, but I have a Colt 6721. Even if I wanted to slap a plain jane stock and a triangular forend on it, it will still have the words "Tactical Carbine" printed on it.
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Old February 3, 2014, 05:37 PM   #77
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JMHO, I think disposable income has a lot to do with it.
I am surprised at the amount of kids (30s), college educated who don't think they need to start saving for retirement until their 40s??
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Old February 3, 2014, 05:40 PM   #78
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In my experience at the local plinking range, it's usually the younger crowd (20-somethings) that festoon their AR's and AK's with all of the overpriced tacti-cool geewgaws, and subscribe to the zombie nonsense.. Whatever.. Welcome to basic Marketing 101, Supply and Demand.

The last time we were at the local plinking range, the fellow next to us had a Rock River AR festooned with all of the popular geegaws, including an EOTech Zombie, and couldn't hit the coffee cans we had set up about 75yds out. LoL. I was shooting my M38 Mosin with a shot-out barrel and took careful aim at his cans, and blew them skyward. He was amazed at how powerful the 7.62x54 was and wanted to have a go with it. Love at first sight. I converted him.
Did you show him how switching and shooting the Mosin on the left side will knock your shoulder BACK into alignment?
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Old February 3, 2014, 06:19 PM   #79
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20 years or so ago I was competing in uspsa and I only shot limited, primarily because I wanted to become efficient and continue to develop my skills with iron sights. I saw no real advantage other then gamesmanship to shooting open class. I also saw no practical application for holographic sights and red dots. At the time the were early development, temperamental, large and somewhat fragile. Look how far they have come, small enough to mount on a pistol, strong enough for our military. While not everything will flush out, it's good to have a development process beyond the military where tools can be enhanced and flushed out. Some guys are over the top, camies wannabes, etc but I don't let it bother me, I just stay away from them. You can tell those who are trained and served.
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Old February 3, 2014, 06:41 PM   #80
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And if you want to talk tactical, think to WWI and the Springfield '03. Use that thing as a club in a trench raid, so tactical is doesn't even need bullets
OK, I just snarfed coffee out my nose at that one.

You've got a point, though. I'm pretty sure the Garand was pretty darned tactical when we showed up in Casablanca with it. Heck, so were Spencers and Gatling guns in their own time.
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Old February 3, 2014, 07:25 PM   #81
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The point about 8 shot Garands being tactical and best battle rifle of all time is interesting in the modern debates about ARs.

Here we are hanging all kinds of tactical stuff on them. Their role is clearly for the lethal weapons use of the gun as compared to being a Bambi slayer.

But, we have this campaign to appease antigunners with the term Modern Sporting Rifle. It's for sport - it's nice - please don't take it away, Mr. Biden and Bloomberg. The lamented Zumbo and Metcalf fell in this trap. Zumbo denounced the gun. Metcalf had a Guns and Ammo tv show where he compared a fully auto M4 to a semiversion. He waved the latter as a modern sporting rifle. He did not understand the psychology of appearance. Any anti seeing a three gunner or carbine match where the semis shoot like lightning isn't buying his pseudo-dichotomy. The NSSF promotes such and I see Tom Gresham as an upcoming show about the modern sporting rifle.

The AR platforms usually have 30 round mags. They are full of cop-killer bullets according to bloviating Joe Scarborough - not necessary for taking his son hunting. He's a so-called conservative supporter of the 2nd Sporting Amendment.

Our AR's far exceed the best battle rifle in capacity. It has sights (debatable for the iron sights crowd) that are major advances over the Garand. It has lights and night vision that a WWII finest battle rifle never could have but it's sporting? Some departments are happy issuing just semi versions to their officers.

But we make them tactical! OH , NO!

I have expressed the opinion that the modern sporting rifle mantra is to pander to the antis and fall into a trap. For sport or hunting, you can do just fine with a Ruger single shot in most cases.

So hanging weird gadgets might seem silly - esp. if you don't know how to use the gun and are just a gadget freak. However, don't forget the reason to have such a gun is fundamentally couched in a 2nd Amend. millieu to protect yourself and family plus guard against tyranny.

The issue is that equipment can't substitute enough for deficient skills, so some accoutrements may seem posing and silly but don't forget the reasons for tactical weapons. It isn't Bambi, steel or carboard dudes.
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Old February 3, 2014, 07:42 PM   #82
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Has anyone else noticed how much the "tactical" people don't complain about the old plain jane fuddy-duddies who won't add anything to their rifles??

I am off to grind some corn in my musket now...
http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCG...TABASE=objects
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Old February 3, 2014, 07:51 PM   #83
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Haha - I did tell a friend who hangs stuff on his AR that he needs the George Foreman grill buttstock. That's more modern, DNS.
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Old February 3, 2014, 07:58 PM   #84
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I did not enjoy enjoy the judgmental attitude of the OP.
My own AR HD carbine does have foliage green furniture...because I got a good deal on a used set...and I like it. There is one single rail for a light, still to be decided upon.
When I shoot, it is mostly at 100yds. I like to pick off clay pigeons using the A1 iron sights.
Last summer, an old guy (um, I'm 57) set up next to me. He seemed to look at my AR dismissively as he prepared his '03 Springfield. In a while, he was complaining how his rifle was shooting high...
He was unaware of the 100yd battle sight setting, which I was glad to show him.
Problem solved.
Not everybody shooting a tacti-carbine is clueless. Some funds are too.
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Old February 3, 2014, 08:38 PM   #85
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I'm not a Veteran.I like to build and shoot rifles.

If I build a rifle on a Mauser or a Springfield,I'm Bubba hacking up a piece of history.

OK,I took an 03A3 receiver and bolt and built a pretty darn nice 1903A4 copy..I like shooting it.Does that make me a wannabe?I like low key clothes colors,sometimes Carharts,sometimes something from the surplus store..I like the Desert Storm night camo parka.Nice shell.

I've built some AR's.I like 20 rd mags,and I use Magpull collapsible stocks.If a 12 yr old wants to shoot it,I can give them proper eye relief and LOP.

I'm not afraid to move the scope an inch or two.The rail and cantilever ringmount work.

I shoot one round at a time,no budda-budda-budda.I pursue accuracy.I like a free float handguard.Of the free float forends readily available for a reasonable price,I choose Yankee Hill.I like the way it mounts up solid.

On one of my AR's,loosely a SDMR copy,I have a YHM folding foregrip.Folded,offhand and sitting,it works a little like an old school palm rest.I like it.

If I fold the foregrip down,using 20 rd mags,laying down I can rest my left fist on the ground and squeeze that grip as a monopod.Its steady enough for 250 yd PDs.

I have been known to watch over a dead cow for coyotes at night.I have a 10x Pride fowler scope with a Rapid 800 reticle on that rifle.Reticle is very fine,invisible in bad light.

Only when I'm going to do that,I have a 200 lumen light in a Leupold QDR ring I can clamp on,but I do not leave it there.

Laserlyte,I think,makes the little flat laser that is under my forward scope tube on the top rail.It shoots under the scope bell.

I can put a paper target out in the dark at 150 yds ,clamp on my light,and see the reticle on the target.Then I turn on the laser and adjust it to spot on my reticle for 150 yds.It works good.

My 308 AR has a graphite forend tube,no rails. I did not have budget for a new scope,I borrowed the VX3 3.5 to 10X B+C off another rifle


My lighter AR has an 18 in DD S2W bbl,and a YHM forend.I have a Magpul sling loop on the rail...that's it.

I'm happy,hope you don't mind.
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Old February 3, 2014, 09:02 PM   #86
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Some videos the OP will enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQpf...u26INfoMbd9fAh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N4usbYsFq8

My favorite line from the second video: "Here we have flashlights, laser, 3 red dot sights, a scope -- these are set up for separate ranges. If you keep both eyes open you can shoot through two of them at the same time"
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Old February 3, 2014, 09:37 PM   #87
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I'm 66 so definitely like old school. I have cap&ball and early cartridge replicas, a genuine 101 year old P08 and an assortment of firearms since those times. I love and appreciate all of them.

In 1966 I trained with the M14 and grew to like it. In Vietnam 1968 I was issued the M16 which I liked even more once I got used to it. Today's M4 is even better, much better. So of course I have an AR-15 and it has a red dot/BUIS set up. But I still swap on a beloved carry handle for fun! I carried a Colt Series '70 45ACP for decades but now prefer a Glock in 40S&W.

Anyway, old is good but don't ignore new technology even if it may be called "tactical". Just pick and choose from today's buyer's market. We are so fortunate to have such a wide selection but we have to defend our right to own it. So why not talk to and even bond with the young guys out there, there's a lot they can learn from us old guys who've been around guns for decades plus we might learn something ourselves. Just make sure everyone understands firearms safety before relaxing too much around new guys. And make sure they understand how precious our right to bear arms is.
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Old February 3, 2014, 09:55 PM   #88
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Right now, as we speak, I am sitting at my computer wearing a pair of black and grey cargo camo pants for no other reason other than I LIKE EM BABY!!!!
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Old February 3, 2014, 10:01 PM   #89
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Then there's this guy. There's at least five flashlights on the gun. I can't be sure, but it looks like the holo sight he's got mounted on the barrel blocks the scope.

(How much maintenance would just be in batteries?)

There's a point at which functionality gives way to fetishism, and I see it all too often. I swear, if I never hear the term "operator" outside of a phone company or hospital again, it'll be too soon.
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Old February 3, 2014, 10:50 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Mavrick79 View Post
Right now, as we speak, I am sitting at my computer wearing a pair of black and grey cargo camo pants for no other reason other than I LIKE EM BABY!!!!

No camo here, but I'm wearing 5.11 Tactical Stryke Pants... Which don't look any more tactical than Old Navy cargo pants, but happen to be well built and have room for such mall ninja devices as my Leatherman Juice S2. Screwdrivers and little scissors are pretty tactical.
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Old February 3, 2014, 11:47 PM   #91
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Lets say just for instance a guy buys a new AR. It doesn't have a thing on it except a ghost ring. He takes it to the range and shoots it a few times. This is his first rifle and he has some problems getting his shots in the black. The very first thing that pops into his mind is optics. Never mind learning to shoot with the ghost ring that came as std. equipment. He puts an aimpoint on it. Bingo, he's now in the black. Do you think he's actually going to learn to shoot without his optics, probably not. Do you think at some point he may need to know how to shoot without his optics, probably. The Marine Corps thinks so.

There exists a misconception that the RCO (rifle combat optic) alleviates our need to apply the fundamental of aiming, in the traditional sense (as with iron sights), and that we must “unteach” these skills in order to be effective with the RCO. If we unteach the importance of maintaining a consistent relationship between the aiming eye, sights, and target, if we unteach the importance of maintaining our focus on the aiming vertex (whether that be the front sight post or bullet-drop compensator (BDC)) and not the aim point, we will lose our ability to hit beyond 300 meters. -

See more at: http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/a....MZWKgpD8.dpuf

Some of that tactical stuff helps, some of it is a crutch.
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Old February 4, 2014, 12:49 AM   #92
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Speaking of colors, I was okay with the black, stainless, and other colors. Then, the baby poop green and dog doo brown hit the scene. Holy cow!
You mean the "Rhodesian" paint jobs?

[pic removed per policy]

Those have been around since the 70s that you were reminiscing about...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesian_Bush_War

Last edited by Ridge_Runner_5; February 6, 2014 at 12:12 AM.
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Old February 4, 2014, 02:16 AM   #93
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Dang I like that ol' Rhoadie FAL!

lostintheozone's comments about guys buying an AR, shooting it a few times and going straight to a dot or optic--before ever learning their irons--mirrors my experience with the Patrol Rifle program I've run for a couple of small Departments. Sadly, the 'sights' on a couple of M4geries I've seen would not even zero. It's hard to get people trained to use their their sights when all their AR buds are screaming at them to hang a dot on them..
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Old February 4, 2014, 02:40 AM   #94
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I, personally, am tired of the home defense craze. Pistol ammo is now coming in boxes of 20 instead of 50 for more money because it says critical defense or whatever on the box. And then there's all the super tactical gear that you can put on an AR, and the result is a father accidentally killing his teenage daughter more effectively after mistaking her for an intruder. All the gear in the world will not make up for proper training in the fundamentals of marksmanship and basic rules like identifying your target before pulling the trigger.
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Old February 4, 2014, 02:56 AM   #95
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Tactical Derringer

If you want to get tactical with a Derringer...

http://herohog.com/images/guns/minipunisher.jpg
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Old February 4, 2014, 04:43 AM   #96
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It's not so much about old people thinking it was better in their day, it's more why make your gun weigh twice as much as it needs too, with accessories you don't even use, dress up like you are in the military and all before you can barely shot the dam gun.

Sure people are entitled to do what they like, but doesn't mean you can't comment on how silly they look.

Gone are the days when you buy a rifle, start shooting and when you are proficient and need certain accessories do you buy them. It's now buy the gun, chuck all the tactical gizmos on and you are good to go.

I don't get the tactical combat courses that people do, where they are trained to fight of a million bad guys from moving vehicles and learn room clearing. Just seems a tad ridiculous for the average Joe to do such a thing.
Sure you can do it for fun, but there are people who really think they need to do it to keep themselves safe and be prepared.

Oh and I'm less than 25 years old, so am hardly an old man stuck in the past.
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Old February 4, 2014, 06:35 AM   #97
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I can not stop laughing,woke up and read this and it made my day.I'm gonna go shopping after work and see if I can find a fire lance just to keep it as old school as possible.lol
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Old February 4, 2014, 08:25 AM   #98
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It's not so much about old people thinking it was better in their day, it's more why make your gun weigh twice as much as it needs too, with accessories you don't even use, dress up like you are in the military and all before you can barely shot the dam gun.
LOL, you must be going to the paintball range. The guys I see at the range have some pretty nifty gear, but they use all the accessories they have on their guns.

Quote:
Gone are the days when you buy a rifle, start shooting and when you are proficient and need certain accessories do you buy them. It's now buy the gun, chuck all the tactical gizmos on and you are good to go.
Those days aren't gone, but back in the day, there were few accessories to be had. A lot was FORD mentality (any color so long as it is black) when it came to available options.

Quote:
I don't get the tactical combat courses that people do, where they are trained to fight of a million bad guys from moving vehicles and learn room clearing. Just seems a tad ridiculous for the average Joe to do such a thing.
Sure you can do it for fun, but there are people who really think they need to do it to keep themselves safe and be prepared.
And that is why people like you should not be in them.

Quote:
Oh and I'm less than 25 years old, so am hardly an old man stuck in the past.
You certainly are not stuck in the future.
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Old February 4, 2014, 09:13 AM   #99
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I don't get the tactical combat courses that people do, where they are trained to fight of a million bad guys from moving vehicles and learn room clearing. Just seems a tad ridiculous for the average Joe to do such a thing.
Sure you can do it for fun, but there are people who really think they need to do it to keep themselves safe and be prepared.
Given plenty of private land, a tall berm, a 4-door jeep with no top and me and a few other middle aged guys piled in with guns and started blasting at props set up in front of the berm to simulate a drive-by shooting. Life's too short not to have a little "safe" but irresponsible fun. So, take your tactical combat courses, load up on tacticool gear if that's what you like, and like another poster said "for no other reason other than YOU LIKE IT BABY!!!!
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Old February 4, 2014, 09:21 AM   #100
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I'm 25 and would much prefer a nice Savage 110 in .25-06 with an old Lyman scope on it than an AR-15 with all the doodads hanging on it, including a coffee maker. My sister got a Kureg for Christmas, she can handle the coffee.

That being said, to go with what Glenn said, I believe that we as free citizens should be able to own the weapon that outfits as our armed forces, including the optics mounted on it.

Ugly guns for ugly things and what not.
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