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Old February 3, 2014, 11:13 AM   #51
Technosavant
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As NOT ex military I intentionally avoid clothing and doodads that make me out to be a mall ninja. The closest I may get is "tactical brown Walmart Bermuda shorts or hiking pants in out terrible 3.7 hours of winter we have in Central Texas.
I'm the same way. I DO own one pair of camo pants, but I use them for mowing the lawn and other outdoor gardening. Reason being, they're comfy, have lots of pockets for things, and they're impossible to stain (if the dirt and grass stains don't come out, they merely enhance the pattern).

But wear them to the range? One might as well go to a concert wearing the T-shirt of the band you're there to see.
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Old February 3, 2014, 11:35 AM   #52
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Got to admit I love reading the OP's Post. Right on for the most part.

Its about the software (shooter and fundamentals) not the hardware (crap you hang on a rifle) that makes a shooter.

Having said. We need to leave the tacticool guys alone. Maybe even encourage them to buy more tactical stuff.

The more money they spend to make themselves tactical, the less ammo they can afford to buy.

Meaning more ammo for us.
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Old February 3, 2014, 11:46 AM   #53
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Haha.

Just reading a new book on the Newhall incident by Wood. Stresses that equipment was down on the list of what went wrong there.

Although, this might be a nice accessory:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...auncher-06406/
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Old February 3, 2014, 01:08 PM   #54
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My biggest objection to the OP is where is the line drawn?

I have an AR that serves as a HD gun. I have exactly 4 things mounted to it: red dot optic, BUIS, an angled foregrip, and a flashlight. Now most people will agree that the first three are "functional" enhancements (you do NEED a place to put your support hand and a way to make sure you hit what you aim at, right?), and the light will come in handy if I ever needed to use the gun in my home at night.

But what if I forget to remove the flashlight from the 2" rail section before I hit the range for the day as I usually do? Does that make me a tacticool, mall-ninja, SPECOPS wannabe? Or am I a guy with a "practical" gun for the purpose it is designed for, and just forgot to make it appearance ready for people at the range?
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Old February 3, 2014, 01:26 PM   #55
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To play devil's advocate why to you need the BUIS? Either the red dot works or it doesn't. Fidling around with it in a home invasion situation seems counterintuitive.

The light is personal preference and many people don't like the idea of showing where you are at with one, but thats personal preference and I can understand it.
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Old February 3, 2014, 01:28 PM   #56
Mavrick79
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I'm sorry but on one hand the OP is telling us what we should have and not have and I can guarantee you he and all the other supporters on this thread are also pro 2A and believes the government has no business telling us what guns and accessories we are allowed to own, talk about hypocrisy.

Seriously guys, live and let live, this is what freedom is all about. Its just that simple.
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Old February 3, 2014, 01:33 PM   #57
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I'm sorry but on one hand the OP is telling us what we should have and not have...Seriously guys, live and let live, this is what freedom is all about. Its just that simple.
Yes, I respectfully agree with this statement. I mean aren’t some of the older “classic” guns actually the “tactical” stuff of their time – 1911?
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Old February 3, 2014, 01:38 PM   #58
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General consensus among friends who have actually used carbines is foregrip, optic, light, sling, and BUIS. Seems these are actually useful.

I don't own any long guns, but I'll eventually get an AR, and will probably out those things on it. I promise not to decide that doing so will make me a Navy SEAL.
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Old February 3, 2014, 01:41 PM   #59
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To play devil's advocate why to you need the BUIS? Either the red dot works or it doesn't. Fidling around with it in a home invasion situation seems counterintuitive.
I have both mounted because my wife also has access to the gun. Her cheek weld is at a different spot than mine and the BUIS are more natural to her while the red dot with a 1/3 low cowitness is more natural to me. There is no fiddling around as they are not flip ups, and are always "up." One of the compromises of having two people that use the same gun.

I do not mean to derail from the OPs thread, but this is exactly what I am referring to when I ask, "where is the line drawn?" For our situation, two sighting systems makes the gun more functional. In my mind, that is where the line should be drawn, when it becomes form over function. But just as in this example, functionality can vary from person to person.
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Old February 3, 2014, 01:55 PM   #60
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I would have to agree that some people are over enthusiastic about their shooting interests, but it isn't limited merely to the tactical crowd.

The SASS/CAS groups love their old western aliases and their replicated 19th century regalia.

The IPSC/USPSA gamers wear their speed rigs, NASCAR-esque jerseys, and modified speed guns.

Let's not forget the first time mosin owners who show up to shoot in combat boots with draped bandoliers of linked 308 over their megadeath/metallica t-shirts, that insist on shooting with the bayonet extended.

To each their own. I'm ok with having a hobby that has diverse subgroups. It keeps it interesting.
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Old February 3, 2014, 02:11 PM   #61
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Different strokes for different folks.

I was a car freak in my youth, I had a 66 chevelle and a 67 mustang. While lots of guys worried about wheel and paint and all kinds of things for looks I spent more time on other things. I re-built my Mustang from the ground up and since I like going around corners fast I spent more time on things like suspension, shocks, heavier sway bars, and specific tires to do that. I had friends that would say to me "where are your traction bars, and 50 series tires, and cherry bomb mufflers, and spoilers?" Well, that wasn't my thing. I could look at their cars and appreciate what they had done, but it wasn't what I wanted. Again, different strokes.

As for tacticool toys for firearms...Who cares what else someone wants to hang on their weapon? My son bought me a light and a bracket to mount a flashlight on my shotgun because he knows I have taken care of some oppossums and raccoons rampaging in my yard at night and he didn't like the "uber tacti-cool" LED flashlight I had rubber banded to the barrel for that task. I personally dislike the fore ends on rifles with rails all the way around. I don't find them comfortable to hold while shooting, but you having that set-up on your gun does not cause me any grief at all.

I like my fire-arms to look pretty normal, including the EBR I have. But again, to each their own.

Life is too short fellow firearms owners to worry about such trivial stuff. Just enjoy your time shooting and rock on!
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Old February 3, 2014, 02:48 PM   #62
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I'm sorry but on one hand the OP is telling us what we should have and not have and I can guarantee you he and all the other supporters on this thread are also pro 2A and believes the government has no business telling us what guns and accessories we are allowed to own, talk about hypocrisy.
He isn't telling anyone what they should or should not have. He's simply sharing his opinion that many of the ways people go about "dressing up" their modern firearms seems to be wasteful, or even counter-productive.


For example, the other day, I came across a "tactical" AR-15, where the top rails, alone, are a perfect example of waste and counter-productivity.
From back to front, you had a flip up rear sight, 45-degree backup rear sight, fixed rear sight, red dot scope, a holographic sight, a flip up front sight, 45-degree backup front sight, and a fixed front sight.

So, you're co-witnessing iron sights, a red dot, and a holographic sight ... with flip up sights and 45-degree sights in reserve - AND each set of sights had a radically different sight radius. What is the point of all that crap?
How many sighting system malfunctions do you anticipate having on a given day, and what good will it do to have to switch between such dramatically different sighting systems?...

The kid was exceedingly happy with his 'toy', and that's great - he can mount a floor jack and a crock pot to the thing if he wants. But, in my opinion, his setup is just a massively wasteful exercise in stupidity.


Still....
There's a difference between not liking something, and thinking something shouldn't exist.
A lot of this tactical stuff may be garbage, in my opinion (and that of the OP), but that doesn't mean we think it should all be 'banned'.


In my opinion, the Dodge Challenger is one of the most over-priced, over-hyped lumps of garbage on the road today. But, that doesn't mean I think it should go away. In fact, I'm happy to see people waste their money on such stupid cars (or tactical accessories). It means there's lower demand for the useful, quality items that I want, and the price remains reasonable.
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Old February 3, 2014, 03:17 PM   #63
zincwarrior
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Life is too short fellow firearms owners to worry about such trivial stuff. Just enjoy your time shooting and rock on!
True that. I'll admit it only really bugs me when I see a guy in some camo BDU's of some sort when he's clearly not police/military, or when the gun mags advertise up all the "tactical" stuff.

And for the record, not for "banning" any of it.
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Old February 3, 2014, 03:25 PM   #64
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I don't really understand the word "tactical" as its applied to objects.
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Old February 3, 2014, 03:35 PM   #65
zincwarrior
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1.make sure its painted olive drab, khaki, or black (or the current camo scheme).
2. charge 30% more.

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Old February 3, 2014, 03:52 PM   #66
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1.make sure its painted olive drab, khaki, or black (or the current camo scheme).
Actually, olive drab and khaki are so 20th century.

The cool kids deck out their tactical operator ordnance in either Flat Dark Earth or Foliage Green.

...and they still can't hit a 2" bullseye at 25 yards.
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Old February 3, 2014, 04:01 PM   #67
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Count me in with the "who cares what they put on their rifle" crowd, though I do sometimes chuckle a bit at some of the stuff I've seen. If it helps bring more people into the world of shooting, I'm all for it.

I own a couple of ARs -- one has an optic and one just has iron sights. I also own an M1 Garand, a 1903 Springfield, a Model 94 and other "old school rifles." But if someone wants to add lasers, magnifiers, night vision, a reflex sight on top an Aimpoint, bipod, flashlight, and whatever else they want, so what? It's their money.
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Old February 3, 2014, 04:04 PM   #68
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Everyone at the gym wants to lift weights like Arnold Swartzenegger, even though most of them would benefit more by dieting and doing pilates like Martha Stuart. Same thing with shooters.

I don't really hunt, mostly I like to target shoot and plink. The little training I've had is military, police, and self defense shooting that I received from my dad, who's had a lot of professional training.

If my first exposure to shooting had been from a father who was a competition target shooter I'd likely be into the same thing. If dad was a hunter, well, you get the idea.

I wonder what percentage of people who have given shooters their initial exposure recently are combat vets and former police officers vs other generations.

Before you start talking about the WWII generation, I'd like to point out that the percentage of our armed forces with realistic combat training today is higher than at any other time in history.
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Old February 3, 2014, 04:13 PM   #69
Kimber84
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Different strokes for different folks.
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Old February 3, 2014, 04:17 PM   #70
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I wonder what percentage of people who have given shooters their initial exposure recently are combat vets and former police officers vs other generations.
My dad wasn't into shooting. I learned to shoot a rifle as a kid at camp; an air rifle and air pistol as a young teen, and learned to shoot a handgun/revolver from an uncle.

I had to find my own way when it comes to guns, my likes and dislikes. Perhaps that's why my firearms tastes are a little eclectic. I have liked guns since I was about 8 years old. Even though my parents never had any guns. Go figure.
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Old February 3, 2014, 04:19 PM   #71
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Hopefully, like the fart can Hondas,
The reason the American car industry is in such decline is because makers like Honda make a superior product. I am sure Americans are not buying them for the fun of it.
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Old February 3, 2014, 04:21 PM   #72
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zincwarrior wrote:
To play devil's advocate why to you need the BUIS? Either the red dot works or it doesn't. Fidling around with it in a home invasion situation seems counterintuitive.
The BUIS are not tacti-cool. The serve pretty much the same purpose as a spare tire. If your red dot stops working in the middle of something important, the BUIS allow you to continue on.
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Old February 3, 2014, 04:24 PM   #73
zincwarrior
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Hondas (at least accords) have a higher domestic content then the Big Three and are classed as domestically made vehicles. They are made in Tennessee.
When I bought mine (now my boy's) decade ago, it had a higher content then ANY FORD.
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Old February 3, 2014, 04:46 PM   #74
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Pops, who introduced to the mechanics of shooting, probably logged more "tactical trigger time" in Vietnam over the course of five years than most.

And I didn't really have any experience with black plastic rifles until I was issued an M-16A2 at OSUT.

Furthermore, I wouldn't mind building a reproduction of the M-4A1 I carried, to include the ACOG so as to have something to bore the hell out of my grandkids with one day, whereas Dad doesn't want to have anything to do with the CAR-15. However, he does display a fondness for the S&W Model 15, Ithaca 37 riot gun, and various M-1911 models.

Different strokes for different folks.

And if you want to talk tactical, think to WWI and the Springfield '03. Use that thing as a club in a trench raid, so tactical is doesn't even need bullets
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Old February 3, 2014, 05:20 PM   #75
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In my experience at the local plinking range, it's usually the younger crowd (20-somethings) that festoon their AR's and AK's with all of the overpriced tacti-cool geewgaws, and subscribe to the zombie nonsense.. Whatever.. Welcome to basic Marketing 101, Supply and Demand.

The last time we were at the local plinking range, the fellow next to us had a Rock River AR festooned with all of the popular geegaws, including an EOTech Zombie, and couldn't hit the coffee cans we had set up about 75yds out. LoL. I was shooting my M38 Mosin with a shot-out barrel and took careful aim at his cans, and blew them skyward. He was amazed at how powerful the 7.62x54 was and wanted to have a go with it. Love at first sight. I converted him.
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