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Old January 31, 2014, 09:45 PM   #26
Art Eatman
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Been a hunter and outdoorsman since I was a kid--and that's many and many a decade ago. So, yeah, wandering along and not particularly hunting, I've walked up on various critters. Or have been just sitting and looking and had critters come toward me.

If you're not making much noise, critters don't go all bonkers over you. Generally.

But the range of hunting competency varies a bunch. Some folks just can't see animals. It's an experience and skill thing. Others, okay, so-so at hunting success. Some, a high level of success.

My point, if I have one--and if I part my hair right, it won't show--is that you can't fairly judge the world of hunting by what you read on the Internet. Hard enough with the hunting magazines, as well. One thing to remember is "There's no one size fits all" when it comes to any human endeavor of whatever sort. Some folks are good, ethical, skilled, yada, yada, yada--and others ain't worth a tinker's dam ridin' or walkin'.
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Old February 1, 2014, 12:55 AM   #27
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yes there is a lot of unethical behavior. There is indeed a 'shoot' mentality thats nothing more then a "hey look what i shot'.

Its like the people who spend 10,000 for a 8 day guided hunt where all they get to take back is the head and hide. not the 800 pounds of meat off that elk.

look at the videos and magazines, its all HORNS.
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Old February 1, 2014, 11:03 AM   #28
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Bezoar, while the shooter's priority may be the rack and cape, the meat still gets eaten by somebody. By whom? Guide, probably--but it's not my business to worry about it.

My longstanding joke about not hunting in Africa is, "I can't eat a whole elephant!", knowing full well that local tribesmen won't waste one iota of the meat.
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Old February 1, 2014, 11:24 AM   #29
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I've been hunting well over 50 years now and still love getting out and doing it. I hunt for the pleasure of being outdoors and seeing what nature has to offer. I love eating venison....no antibiotics or high cholesterol and it tastes really great. I've shot well over a hundred deer (lost count quite a few years ago, might be 140-150 now?). I don't have one set of horns to show for it. I don't eat the horns. I've shot a lot of "nice" bucks but that wasn't why I shot them. I know guys who hunt for big racks but still enjoy eating the meat when they get one. Unfortunately, I know a lot of guys who shoot anything and get a thrill just shooting something. Their motto is "if it's brown, it's down". This last group is the group I personally have a problem with. One person I know (not a friend, just a fellow sporting clays shooter) shoots all the deer he can, bucks or does, and then complains he can't find anyone to take the meat. He doesn't like venison. Several of us suggested he contact a soup kitchen or contact the DEC. They have a program here in NY where you can donate the venison. He says "that's a lot of trouble just to get rid of the meat". Yes, there are unethical hunters but there are a lot of unethical people in the world. That doesn't keep them from getting a hunting license, selling cars, or doing anything else that is legal. My wife's a vegan. She doesn't complain about me eating meat and she's a great cook. She made a choice and so did I. You're all welcome to do what ever you believe in and I have no problem with that. If you're honest and respect what I do we'll never have a problem getting along. Welcome to the forum.
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Old February 1, 2014, 11:31 AM   #30
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Hunting does take skill depending upon the type of hunting being done. It may not take much skill to shoot a deer in a high fenced area in front of a corn feeder but that isn't what hunting is about for most people.

It also doesn't take much skill to wait under a bridge for a fat billy goat to pass or bait people on the Internet.
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Old February 1, 2014, 12:05 PM   #31
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Great stuff…

I really appreciate the overwhelming civility in the face of my awkward introduction.

I should clarify a few things; I'm not a "vegan" but my personal groceries decisions are vegan.

RE: We are "smarter" due to a meat protein diet I present the Gorilla, canine teeth, pretty darned smart for non-humans, incredibly powerful; vegetarians.
Sure they get some protein from bugs and such but they do not hunt or scavenge meat. There are more dumb as rock critters who are carnivores. The teeth evolution doesn't entirely fly. Are you aware all the "human evolution" up to Homo sapien is based on a very small collection of bones? No complete skeletons.

I whole heartedly agree hunting is superior to factory raised animals which is unquestionably cruelty.

Given, some game at some times is going to be more challenging. My field season is Spring through September. I know we have to be wary of hunters and I encounter them regularly. They don't dig us being out there and tend to act as-if we're encroaching on their territory. It kind of bugs me that while I enjoy the encounters I should be chasing them away, firing a shot from my 9mm over their head to give them a real sense of what humans are capable of. In fact I'm probably doing more harm as many animals get the sense humans are harmless base don encounters with me and similar.

Anyway it just bugs me, especially when I see hand gun hunters. You have to be such a danged good shot to drop an animal with a hand gun and the goal as I understand it is one shot=down..

BTW I did not edit my post the "sheriff" did so I can not be responsible for the entire tone of it.

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Old February 1, 2014, 12:18 PM   #32
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An opinion piece can't be taken for absolute fact. And as you may read from replies on this thread that many people who hunt have years of experiences, motives, evidence, and beliefs contrary to your personal feelings that hunting is unethical.

Eating healthier meat, wildlife conservation, having an active lifestyle, connecting with nature and getting outdoors are all reasons for why I hunt. Not to simply go shoot a living creature and claim it as a trophy.

Additionally, I second the posts from actual hunters who know the difference in wildlife activity before and during hunting seasons and the difficulty it takes to fully harvest an animal.

Quote:
With all due respect, until you've hunted, taken the life of an animal, felt the body cool as you cleaned it and then fed your family and friends with the flesh, your criticism is without merit.
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Old February 1, 2014, 12:28 PM   #33
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I get that I'm taking a side path,but it is about the tone of the OP.

In the state of Colorado,it is a felony to waste the meat.Look it up,read the regs.Along with ethics,it is a matter of law and criminality.You are painting with a broad brush based on a false premise and it is offensive.

I detect Alynski:Separate out one portion of a group and marginalize them.

"Hey,I'm a shooter too,just like you,love the 2nd Ammendment!.....But those Bambi murderers ....."

Then "Well,from my narcissistic,arrogant position of Superiority,I will apologise if I have offended and claim it is because I am passionate"

BS.If you apologise as you do something the apology is a lie.There is no contrition.You are saying "I know I am offensive,but I am arrogant enough to not care"

I genuinely do not care what you eat.That is your sovereign territory,and none of my business.If you tell me you are vegetarian,I'll respect your preference.I'll even tell you about a chilified black bean/hominy dish I cook.

I like meat.Some,(not all),Vegan folks have a political agenda about what I eat.They are the facists with a problem,IMO.

"You don't need that New York Strip,you don't need that 20 round magazine,you don't need that SUV...." I do not need you!

You see,OP,I believe in Liberty,yours,and mine.

From what you have written,I see someone who believes he is superior,who wants to restrict others.

Am I right?
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Old February 1, 2014, 12:41 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli Cash
Anyway it just bugs me, especially when I see hand gun hunters. You have to be such a danged good shot to drop an animal with a hand gun and the goal as I understand it is one shot=down..
Careful with assumptions. Just because you don't think they can do it or you can't do it doesn't mean the guy hunting with the handgun can't do it...

I say as the guy who just this season shot a doe through the heart from 100 yards with my Encore Pro Hunter handgun.

Choice of implement really has no bearing on injury rates. I've talked to a whole lot of hunters and almost every one matches my own experience. Approximately 7-10% of big game animals will be injured and not recovered. This applies across the range, from archery to handguns, shotguns, rifles and black powder guns.

The supposed ethics of hunting is actually amusing to me. What could possibly be the rationale for claiming that hunting is unethical but crushing mice with a steel wire is not? Or poisoning them. Or electrocuting mosquitoes. Smashing flies. etc, etc. It's either "moral" to kill animals or it is immoral or there are no morals. Those are the only choices.
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Old February 1, 2014, 12:49 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eli Cash:

RE: We are "smarter" due to a meat protein diet I present the Gorilla, canine teeth, pretty darned smart for non-humans, incredibly powerful; vegetarians.
Sure they get some protein from bugs and such but they do not hunt or scavenge meat. There are more dumb as rock critters who are carnivores. The teeth evolution doesn't entirely fly. Are you aware all the "human evolution" up to Homo sapien is based on a very small collection of bones? No complete skeletons.
Jane Goodall first discovered Chimpanzees hunt and eat small mammals. There is also evidence that Gorillas also eat small vertebrates such as monkeys and antelope. Those apes, both large and small are considered, like us humans.....omnivorous. Since you're a a geologist and not a biologist, I understand your confusion and the reference to rocks. Along with the inclusion of meat in our diet, once humans learned how to control fire and cook the meat they killed, it, like the vegetables they cooked became easier for the body to digest and thus more protein and nutrients went to our brain. The most intelligent creatures on earth eat meat. Whales, dolphins, the big cats and canines. Pigs are considered really smart....and they are known to eat meat too.


But none of this has to do with the ethics of hunting. At one point in our evolutionary food chain, hunting had no ethics, we had to in order to survive. In northern climates where huge amounts of energy is required to maintain body heat, the inclusion of fat from other mammals that eat meat was and still is needed in the diet or folks will starve to death with full stomachs. In many parts of the world, it is still done without ethics in order for those higher up on the food chain to live. The majority of their prey? Herbivores....Veggies. Again, while not really needed in our modern society in the continental United States to survive, the removal of predators and the adaptation of many prey animals makes it necessary to control their populations. It is not always pretty and may not always fit into what many consider a "challenging" hunt, but it needs to be done or the animals will suffer more by dying some other way. No different than excess dogs and cats in animal shelters. If you don't like to do it, just be thankful there are others that do.
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Old February 1, 2014, 12:57 PM   #36
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not the 800 pounds of meat off that elk.

Nothing to do with the discussion, but this is a common myth. Elk are nowhere near that big. 800lbs live weight including horns is a whopper. Most mature bull elk killed are closer to 600-700lbs on the hoof.
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Old February 1, 2014, 01:51 PM   #37
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With all due respect, until you've hunted, taken the life of an animal, felt the body cool as you cleaned it and then fed your family and friends with the flesh, your criticism is without merit.
this is kindof a bit overly critical of criticism. that is like saying until you've become an elected official, any criticism of president Obama has no merit. until you drink and drive you have no room to criticize drunk drivers. there is always room for outside criticism. now I will second that actually participating in a task can give a lot more incite than what you read in magazines and see on the outdoor channel but to say that observational criticism has no merit is completely wrong.

one thing I will add is that animals are adapting to hunters and hunting seasons. here in my area you do see a great amount of animals in the summer months and late spring, but as soon as shots start ringing then animals tend to get nocturnal very quickly. they relax around humans when there is no perceived danger of hunting, in much the same way that antelope will relax around a watering hole if the nearby lion pride is drinking from the same watering hole.
Quote:
Nothing to do with the discussion, but this is a common myth. Elk are nowhere near that big. 800lbs live weight including horns is a whopper. Most mature bull elk killed are closer to 600-700lbs on the hoof.
this is pretty much correct. an 800 pound bull is going to be a very old animal and not likely to be very edible anymore. in addition to horns, bones(about 40 pounds), hide(about 30 pounds), inedible organs(50 pounds), fat, tendons, sinew, and other inedible tissues(close to 100 pounds)... subtract all that and what you have leftover is the amount of actual, edible meat from your average elk.
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Old February 1, 2014, 02:19 PM   #38
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Thanks again,

Way to much to comment on as many points simply attempt to sidetrack the basic premise of my posts, even I got lost for a second.

Point is it is NOT difficult or rare to get CLOSE to wildlife. See photos. I encountered this family daily for a week in N. UT/S. Wy region… Real challenge to drop one of these. Note one is so concerned it won't stop grazing. This is a fact.

The idea they get skittish after the first shot is comical; "They are hard to hunt because we are hunting"?


You guys might have to admit you aint the Dan'l Boones you think you are if a stumbling geologist encounters more game than you in your camo and deer p. See photos….

On the Native American approach, I was fortunate to spend ~ a year on a reservation and observed the approach to hunting. The LAST thing any of them would do is smile and pose with the carcass. There is a thankful almost apologetic sorrowful attitude. An offering is made for the animal and prayers during sweats….

As we all may imagine, none of our world views on this topic are changed but at least I presented some observations and the why and wherefores of my opinions.


BTW My original thread was not titled unethical so I work from a disadvantage. I was told to refrain from political labels suffice to say I find very few attributes of the current administration admirable on any level.

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Old February 1, 2014, 02:22 PM   #39
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BTW I had been on a couple deer hunts as a kid in So.Alabama near Tensaw. I still recall the field dressing and was more fascinated than disgusted and had venison for dinner! Wasn't all that good as i recall but I understand game is an acquired taste and I was like 10 yrs old…

So I'm not some bleedingnheart liberal (bleeding heart conservative)

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Old February 1, 2014, 02:26 PM   #40
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Your original title called hunters "Jack Wagons". Do you suppose that's better? The word means idiot, loser, lame, pathetic, etc.

We don't do invectives here. Do you have a word that you find more acceptable than "unethical" without being insulting to hunters? I'd be happy to fix it for you.

If you find the "administration" not to your liking, feel free to find the door.
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Old February 1, 2014, 02:32 PM   #41
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Quote:
So I'm not some bleedingnheart liberal (bleeding heart conservative)
Don't much matter how you vote, you're still drawing conclusions based on assumptions on a subject you seem to know Jack about.
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Old February 1, 2014, 02:47 PM   #42
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OP,so now among the population of hunters,you want to Alynski off the handgun hunters as a subset to disdain and marginalize.

You said something about being a government employee with a 9mm.As a Superior Being who can't hit anything with his 9mm handgun,it does not occur to you that your skills are vastly inferior to the skills of a typical handgun hunter.
Do a little research on handgun metallic sillouhette shooting.

Because I have the honor to know some fine,hard working,salt of the earth American Beef Producers,I occasionally assist them by thinning back the prairie dog .200 yd handgun hits are not hard.My .260 Rem MOA handgun does provide one shot,one kill results.

Now,the Rancher does recognize he is a Steward on a much grander scale than cattle.Two small prairie dog towns ,of a controlled size,is enough.The whole hawk,burrowing owl,coyote,rattlesnake thing is just like the stars and the sunsets.
Bulls and cows and spring calving and roundup are all part of the Circle of Life.
The same grass he watches over feeds antelope,deer,rabbits,etc.Lots of bio-diversity.

Now../.do you eat sunflower seeds? Well,I recall we got permission to hunt on some land owned some out of state fellow...pheasants.We went out to hunt pheasants.This land was planted in sunflowers.Miles of sunflowers,tall,heavy heads as big as pie pans.Neat,clean,vegetarian sunflower seeds.

I walked miles in those fields.Not a pheasant.Not a meadowlark.Not a living thing.Mordor.

Own your own shadow.Any means of producing enough food to feed YOU (do you produce the food you eat?) kills.Farming vegetables kills .

Get over the idea you do not kill.We all do.Some just pay others to do it.

Before you learn that,you do not have the Respect and Humility to know your place in the Circle of Life.

A hunter's kill is as honest as a home grown tomato.
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Old February 1, 2014, 02:56 PM   #43
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"Your original title called hunters "Jack Wagons". Do you suppose that's better? The word means idiot, loser, lame, pathetic, etc.

We don't do invectives here. Do you have a word that you find more acceptable than "unethical" without being insulting to hunters? I'd be happy to fix it for you.

If you find the "administration" not to your liking, feel free to find the door."

No sir Brian,

I appreciate your allowing me to stay and allow the thread to run. I'm not sure I would have chosen "unethical" but that's what we have at this point. If you prefer to change my name to "Jack Wagon" I'm all for it and kinda deserve it.

"Don't much matter how you vote, you're still drawing conclusions based on assumptions on a subject you seem to know Jack about."

Well this is my point entirely! I DO KNOW! I may know better than YOU! How much time did you spend in the back country last year? I was in a tent off the beaten track for the most part through UT and WY for 35 straight days. Another week longer in UT, several weeks in SE AZ, a week in So. Cal, ~ 10 days in NV and another 2 weeks in SW Texas. I spent most of the time in Tucson and was weekly out on day trips in the desert; javelinas etc… This is just last year…combine this over a 20 year period and you have EXPERIENCE.

I suggest many of you don't spend enough time in the back country and have no clear indications of animal habits. If your out during hunting season, as has been suggested, the animals are spooked. But I have been out and encountered hunters and still close to wild life….

Trying to argue I have no experience is a lost cause my friend.

EC
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Old February 1, 2014, 03:02 PM   #44
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You realize that many of us (most) have no access to any "back country", right? Many of us hunt plots of land that are 10, 15, 20 acres, surrounded by hundreds of more 10-20 acre plots. The whole USA isn't divided into million acre public land plots.
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Old February 1, 2014, 03:05 PM   #45
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"OP,so now among the population of hunters,you want to Alynski off the handgun hunters as a subset to disdain and marginalize."

Not sure what to "Alynski off" means. I assume its the Saul Alinsky the current admin is so fond of but I only know this via rumor. My political opinions are well formed based on my beliefs. I'll leave it at that.

Next time I see a sunflower seed try to run off or resist I'll reconsider my diet…. I always find this argument particularly amusing. "Eating plants is killing" LOL! I recall some buddist argument for eating fish; "I don't kill the fish, I remove it from the water and it dies" I suggested he toss a cow in the water claiming "I didn't kill the cow, I pushed it in the water and it drowned" and have a hamburger if that was his logic.

EC
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Old February 1, 2014, 03:07 PM   #46
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"You realize that many of us (most) have no access to any "back country", right? Many of us hunt plots of land that are 10, 15, 20 acres, surrounded by hundreds of more 10-20 acre plots. The whole USA isn't divided into million acre public land plots."

So this is not supported by the "culling the herd" environmental need…I assume…

But you are correct, I am "poisoned" by my own experiences and should look at the broader picture. Not to say my arguments fall flat as a result.

EC
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Old February 1, 2014, 03:16 PM   #47
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No, your arguments fall flat on their own, because they're entirely subjective.

You think hunters are (pick your insult) because they are hunters and they kill animals that aren't hard to get close to.

You can spend a month in the back country and take pictures of X from up close.

You somehow associate the difficulty of the hunt with the value of the hunter. If they kill an animal that didn't take much effort, they're (pick your insult).

You apparently believe that a hunter that shoots an animal with a rifle from 500 yards across a valley is different from the hunter that shoots one with hand-made wooden arrows and his handmade bow from 10 yards who is different from a the guy who climbs a tree on his 20 acre plot and shoots one from 50 yards with a shotgun. Even though every one of them will use the same amount of the animal and feed their families with it and all bought a license and all killed the animal quickly.

You somehow equate the difficulty in encountering the animal and/or getting close to one with the ethics or personality of the hunter.

This is an irrelevant and arbitrary association, with no basis in reality.
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Old February 1, 2014, 03:23 PM   #48
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I'm sorry, could you remind me how much HUNTING experience you have?

Any bumbling fool can stumble across various types of animals given 70 DAYS A YEAR in the field. Give me 70 days and I guarantee you I'll punch a tag. If you knew beans about hunting, you'd konw that you don't get 70 days a year, and you don't get to roam over multiple states shooting any animal you see. Bad assumptions.

You assume that every picture you see of a guy smiling with a dead animal means that he, what, defecated all over the carcass and buried the meat because the hike was too far? Ever occur to you that the guy taking the pictures may have helped him out? You know that guide services often times include dressing and packing out the animal, sometimes with horses in back country?

You assume one should, what, feel bad about shooting an animal? I was all smiles in my picture with my elk this year, and so were my wife and daughters when they learned we'd be eating healthy lean meat all year. Plus I got to get out away from civilizatin and hike just like I presume you like to do). Native American customs and ceremonies are fine and good, but it's not MY culture. Why would I not smile for the camera?

Every conclusion you've made is drawn from an assumption about HUNTING, which you have not done.
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Old February 1, 2014, 03:38 PM   #49
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eli Cash:



Point is it is NOT difficult or rare to get CLOSE to wildlife. See photos. I encountered this family daily for a week in N. UT/S. Wy region… Real challenge to drop one of these. Note one is so concerned it won't stop grazing. This is a fact.

The idea they get skittish after the first shot is comical; "They are hard to hunt because we are hunting"?


You guys might have to admit you aint the Dan'l Boones you think you are if a stumbling geologist encounters more game than you in your camo and deer p.

I doubt anybody here claims to be Daniel Boone. Facts are, animals were probably less afraid of humans back in his day so hunting was even easier. So much for legends. Getting close to make a ethical shot is harder than takin' a picture with a telephoto lens. Takin' a good shot and passin' on poor opportunities is what the ethics of hunting is all about. Exposure to humans does not always make animals scared. Many animals equate humans with food and if are not confronted and/or killed/challenged will loose all fear of them. Walking up to a Elk in Yellowstone or downtown Estes Park is easier that tryin' to get close to one out in the wilds of Montana that has been pressured all it's life. Wolves put under the envelope of Endangered Species soon lost all fear of man and found the domestic animals around him to their liking. Once the hunt started again they were quite easy. Not so much anymore. Everything is relative. I could claim it's easy to race Indy cars cause I can drive a car back and forth to work too. I could claim it's easy to be a geologist because I know a rock from a mineral and I know what an erosional remnant is. That too is relative.

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Old February 1, 2014, 03:40 PM   #50
Eli Cash
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'No, your arguments fall flat on their own, because they're entirely subjective.

You think hunters are (pick your insult)'

Each and ALL of your individual arguments are subjective. There is no empirical truth here.

My experiences have been countered with others experiences that could be viewed in the same light yet you do not point your conclusions at them. Therefore you are subjective AND biased.

"I'm sorry, could you remind me how much HUNTING experience you have?"

I had been on several "hunts" up to about 16 yrs old. Only an experience at ~10 years old was a kill involved. I'm also a photographer and have experience "stalking" animals. Mostly birding. My best lens was a 200mm not the best so one must get very close for decent wild life images. Ended up not being my bag..I do landscapes nowadays.


Suffice to say I am a more complete outdoorsman and have a better understanding of wildlife than the vast majority that have responded here. I know that will rub some of you the wrong way. I'm sure there are some here that have equal back country time and if so they can confirm the mental shift that occurs away from "civilization" for extended periods.

Once again saying I have no experience is folly; I just don't kill…


EC
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