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Old February 1, 2014, 04:55 PM   #26
handlerer2
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I currently own Nikon Monachs, 3x9 and 4x12, a Viper PST 6x24 ffp, I can't see any real difference in the glass. The Vortex has better features, IMO. My eyes aren't what they were 40 yrs ago either.

It would not surprise me to find out that they all use the same glass.

The quality of scopes has improved a great deal since the '70's. I still have a Weaver K-6, I bought in 1976, and it as functional now as was then, but even my tired eyes can see the improvement in glass, in todays optics.

Nothing wrong with your rifle choice, although it wouldn't be my first, although it was my first centerfire magnum rifle, MDL 700 ADL, 7mag. I found it at a going out business sale at Gibson's dept store. It was sitting in a rack starting to rust. I got for about $100 including tax.

I think rifles have improved much since then. The best I was ever able to get was 1.5", five shot group, handloads and factory at 100yds. That was considered respectable back then. We all used to shoot five rd groups at that time.

The Vanguard,300WBY, that I bought my son in '07, surprised me with it's accuracy. The factory target is about .7". My son can shoot much closer to that than I can. Grr! It's not that easy to shoot a 300WBY consistently from the bench, at least for me. But my son, all 130lbs of him goes with it and has never flinched.

It's hard to really go wrong with any of the suggestions. Just find an optic with the features you want. They all have great warrantys these days. All of mentioned brands anyway.
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Old February 1, 2014, 05:30 PM   #27
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Thanks for the pictures and input. Looks like I need to check out the viper ! I am about ready to start looking for a scope for either my 300 or 7 mag. Though I had seen the viper advertised I never had the opportunity to try one or get any input to the quality issue. Also several suggested the 7mm-08 through out this post which was my second choice for my purchase last year for a deer rifle behind the 25-06 I got. I don't have one but I have always thought the ballistics for distance , hog and deer type shooting looked very good.

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Old March 2, 2014, 05:39 PM   #28
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Can someone explain to me the difference on the viper scopes???

I mean I find viper pst 6.5-20 50mm scopes with a 30mm tube from $400 then go to a similar 6-24x50mm with a 30mm tube and be up to $750-$1000

http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-r...pr-m-06fp.html

http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-v...le-scopes.html

http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-v...iflescope.html

What are the major differences to a newb on these three, are they both adjustable for elevation and windage on the fly, ie you can dope the scope for the shot?? Other differences??

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Old March 2, 2014, 10:07 PM   #29
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A couple of questions.
1. Why are you trying to take game at up to 800yds? Are you positive you can make a clean kill at that range?
2. It doesn't matter how much you spend on a high end scope if you expect it to make any shot count. Do you already have long range experience in calculating wind drift, ambient temp. and a sundry of other variables?

Here's a ballistics chart that shows a 32 ft. drop at 800yds. using factory ammo. You will have to be able to hold over that much and most scopes don't have that much adj. available. http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/

Good luck to you an I hope you figure it all out.
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Old March 3, 2014, 12:10 AM   #30
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Blackop2, thats funny, but the Vortex Viper Hs 4-16x 44 I checked out yesterday was as bright but clearer and had more magnification that any VXIi Ive ever checked out.

To the OP, you can find a used rifle in .308, 7mm, 30-06, .260 alot of the short mags, that'll reach that far...

Dont skimp on glass, bases, rings, and quality ammo. Practice until you get what your lookin to obtain.
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Old March 3, 2014, 12:46 AM   #31
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I don't think that the OP is trying to take game at 800 yards but he is looking for a gun that will both shoot targets at 800 yards and shoot game at typical hunting distances. At least that's how I read it.
Trouble is that he's going to end up with a compromise for both goals unless he decides to focus on one goal and take what he can get for the other.
I'd like to ask the OP how often he'll be hunting versus long-range (or mid-range to some people here) target shooting. If the honest answer skews heavily toward one or the other, optimize your choice for that and take what you can get on the other.
I suspect that many people can get to the range more often than go hunting, which is too bad because the OP's budget lends itself more to a hunting rig versus a long-range target rig.
I'm a Tikka fan but Savage seems like the leader in best performance for the price right now so I'd look at a hunting rig with a Savage in .308 and a Vortex/Nikon/Leo scope. If you want to try to cover both bases you could move up to a 300 Win (the other cartridges are better choices if he reloaded) but that's not ideal for both either.
Best of luck,
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Old March 3, 2014, 08:11 AM   #32
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fire, I have both the 6.5x20 PA and the 6x24 PST scopes and I like both of them. Both have good ranges for windage and height adjustments as well as parallax adjustments. I have used both of them shooting 308 at 300, 600 and 1000 yards and they both worked well at those distances.

Obviously the PST has 24X magnification, compared to 20X for the PA. The PST also has an illuminated reticle while the PA does not.

Is the PST worth the extra $300 compared to the PA? Not sure, depends on your budget and what you are looking for in the scope.
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Old March 3, 2014, 01:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Hobie
1. Why are you trying to take game at up to 800yds? Are you positive you can make a clean kill at that range?
2. It doesn't matter how much you spend on a high end scope if you expect it to make any shot count. Do you already have long range experience in calculating wind drift, ambient temp. and a sundry of other variables?
1. The OP never stated he was trying to take game at that range. He said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverstang23
I'm looking to get to 800 yards under $1,200. I'm thinking I want a 308. I'm mostly a sport shooter but want something to take hog and deer hunting with friends.
To me this meant that he wanted a rifle capable of getting to 800 yards at a range, but something he's still able to hunt deer and hogs with.

2. The OP's original post pretty much implied that he didn't have the experience to shoot 800 yards, but was wanting the equipment to help get him there. It's a lot easier to shoot LR with good equipment and learn how to get there, than to use a mediocre setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Hobie
Here's a ballistics chart that shows a 32 ft. drop at 800yds. using factory ammo. You will have to be able to hold over that much and most scopes don't have that much adj. available. http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/
Depends on the ammunition used, .308 Winchester 168 grain Federal Gold Match only drops 220.9" in 800 yards 221/12=18.4' of drop from a 100 yard zero.

1 MOA is 1.047" at 100 yards, so 8X1.047=8.367" is 1 MOA at 800 yards. 221/8.637=25.5 MOA of drop at 800 yards. If you start thinking in MOA (or MIL is using those adjustments) instead of inches and feet it makes LR shooting so much easier. Most 30mm scopes have around 70-75 MOA of adjustment so you'll only use about 1/3 of the adjustment to get to 800 yards. 1" scopes are usually around 50 MOA so you'll need half, that is why canted bases are usually needed with the 1" tube scopes and the .308 Win.
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Old March 3, 2014, 03:16 PM   #34
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"I'm looking to get to 800 yards under $1,200. I'm thinking I want a 308. I'm mostly a sport shooter but want something to take hog and deer hunting with friends. What are your recommendations?"

He never stated his precise intentions and mentioned hunting but nothing to indicate otherwise. There are those out there that [I]would[I] try taking game at that distance, so I just asked for clarification, that's all. I did mis-read the ballistics on the round an indeed using the bullet mentioned, the round does only drop 18+ feet. But, factor in a crosswind of only 5 miles an hour steady then you have to adjust your windage 3.5 feet and hope that the wind doesn't change.

I totally agree with all the input. I own a 700 PSS that's been tuned by a professional and respected gunsmith in our area. Boring to shoot at 100 yds.

My intentions were not to intimidate the OP. Just to clarify his objective.

Hobie

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Old March 4, 2014, 04:41 PM   #35
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Well, first off, I don't understand the "want something to take hunting .... with friends" part because no one hunts at 800 yards - no one with any ethics, that is, and almost no one period, youtube vids notwithstanding.

Chambering. You can do a lot, LOT better than .308. .308 win is fine of course, but many chambering choices are better past about 600: Take your pick: .260 rem, 6.5x55, 6.5-.284 norma, 7mm WSM, 7mm RSAUM, .280 rem, .280 rem AI, 6.5-'06, 7mm-08...even .270 Win beats the hell out of .308 win in drop and drift, all other things being equal (if you can achieve that, meaning equally accurate rifle build and ammo).

Note that you did say hunting (nevermind that I don't understand the hunting and loooong range statement), so that's why I recommend a 7mm or 6.5mm for hunting - because .30 cals have a better bullet selection for long range (high-BC bullets) for TARGET bullet choices, with 7mm bullets a close 2nd place; whereas in HUNTING bullet selections, the opposite is true: 7mm bullets have a slight edge in the BC dept over .30 cals in properly constructed hunting options. Really I'd go with a 7mm over a 6.5mm for hunting; just a lot more bullet choices for a hunting performer (though granted there are a few in 6.5).

Rifle - this is obviously the most important part, and since we're talking about a budget, we're talking factory. Since we're talking factory, we're excluding custom. Since we're excluding custom, the chambering and rifle choice are all wrapped up together, since we have limited factory options.

That leaves us with a Savage in 6.5-284 Norma. Or a Savage in .260 rem or 6.5 creedmoor perhaps. Or even .243 win, 6mm rem, or 6mm BR.

You did say hunting, so we want to stay light or medium-light if possible, However, it appears that now, the only model offered by Savage in 6.5-284 is the "12 F Class", but that is one heavy dude, way heavier than anything remotely reasonable for hunting. We need to stay at 10.25 lbs bare or less, let's say, to meet your criteria.

I just don't think you can "get there from here" new. You're asking for everything - light weight, low price, and supreme accuracy - can't be done in a new rifle - you can pick any two but not three. About the closest you're going to come to getting what you want is a Savage "12 VLP DBM" in .243 Win. .308 win, or .300 WSM, or a Savage "12 LRPV Left Port" in 6mm BR.

So the answer is go used until you find a steal on a custom - scan Gunbroker - do what I do- Browse for the category "bolt action rifles", then use simply the word "custom" as your search. Check it weekly. Some accurate choices in nice chamberings will come along. There's no guarantees on accuracy, but with the right questions, a little knowlege and insight, and a smidge of luck, you can get what you want, if perhaps not on the first try (never know when you might get a lemon custom off of GB or similar).

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Old March 4, 2014, 05:28 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlicensed Dremel
Well, first off, I don't understand the "want something to take hunting .... with friends" part because no one hunts at 800 yards - no one with any ethics, that is, and almost no one period, youtube vids notwithstanding.
The OP never stated he was wanting to shoot game at 800 yards just a rifle that he could shoot that far as well as take hunting. As far as ethics that is a personal opinion as to what is an ethical range at which people should shoot. I've hunted around people who can cleanly make kills at ranges at which I would never attempt and hunted around people who had no business taking a shot at any range. It isn't up to me or anyone else to tell them that they shouldn't hunt. The best we can hope for is that people who hunt recognize their ability and hunt within those abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlicensed Dremel
Chambering. You can do a lot, LOT better than .308. .308 win is fine of course, but many chambering choices are better past about 600: Take your pick: .260 rem, 6.5x55, 6.5-.284 norma, 7mm WSM, 7mm RSAUM, .280 rem, .280 rem AI, 6.5-'06, 7mm-08...even .270 Win beats the hell out of .308 win in drop and drift, all other things being equal (if you can achieve that, meaning equally accurate rifle build and ammo).
Again that's all opinion, since the OP stated that he doesn't reload. If you don't reload the .308 is an excellent cartridge to choose for a beginner. Much more factory options available for ammunition than any of the cartridges you mentioned.
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Old March 4, 2014, 06:53 PM   #37
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Oh, I'm sorry on the hunting confusion.... OK.

Point taken about high-quality ammo in .308.....but then again, you don't have to reload to find high-quality ammo in .260 or 6.5 creedmoor (albeit, as you indicated, not in a large selection, but a small and sometimes out-of-stock selection).... all you need is a credit card and internet connection to dial up Midway USA(and patience til they're in stock), so I stick by my advice on chambering. Though .308 isn't terrible choice, of course.
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Old March 4, 2014, 07:08 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fire4606 View Post
Can someone explain to me the difference on the viper scopes???



I mean I find viper pst 6.5-20 50mm scopes with a 30mm tube from $400 then go to a similar 6-24x50mm with a 30mm tube and be up to $750-$1000



http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-r...pr-m-06fp.html



http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-v...le-scopes.html



http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-v...iflescope.html



What are the major differences to a newb on these three, are they both adjustable for elevation and windage on the fly, ie you can dope the scope for the shot?? Other differences??

The differences are first focal plane, target turrets, objective size, power range, and illuminated reticles.
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Old March 4, 2014, 08:13 PM   #39
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Quote:
The differences are first focal plane, target turrets, objective size, power range, and illuminated reticles.
This ^^^ as well as reticle type . I love this reticle
http://imageshack.com/a/img211/6864/...50ebr1moa1.jpg

If you want to compare all those scopes to one another , going to the Vortex web page is best
http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/riflescopes
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Old March 4, 2014, 09:27 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Unlicensed Dremel
all you need is a credit card and internet connection to dial up Midway USA(and patience til they're in stock), so I stick by my advice on chambering. Though .308 isn't terrible choice, of course.*
Midway offers 170 choices in .308 ammunition, and only about 34 choices for the 6.5 Creedmoor and .260 Remington combined. 40 of those 170 choices is for target/match ammunition so the .308 still has more choices than the others. I'm not arguing the .260 and 6.5 CM aren't good cartridges, just that the .308 isn't lacking either.

IMO the .308 Win is never a poor choice, and you're more likely to find it outside of the web retailers as well. Shooting instead of waiting on a backorder is always a better choice as well. It's kind of hard to learn the skills necessary to shoot to 800 yards with no ammunition to feed a rifle. It won't always be looking the best or cheapest ammunition, but the OP is more likely to find a larger selection of .308 ammunition locally than either of the cartridges you mentioned.
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Old March 4, 2014, 09:33 PM   #41
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With a few here--Any 308 will get you there. No need for a bull barrel or heavy barrel. You won't be able to shoot 10 rounds in a row with out a cool down,but accuracy is just as good. As for scope- I am a bad guy to talk to about that. I shoot matches at 1000 yards with a 8-32 x 56. I tell you if I could get into something even stronger ( money thing ).I would not think twice about it.

Im looking at something down the line of the Hubble Telescope.
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Old March 4, 2014, 11:54 PM   #42
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Midway offers 170 choices in .308 ammunition, and only about 34 choices for the 6.5 Creedmoor and .260 Remington combined. 40 of those 170 choices is for target/match ammunition so the .308 still has more choices than the others.

Yes, agreed!

Quote:
just that the .308 isn't lacking either.
Well, but yes and no. Mostly, yes it is lacking, seems to me, relative to other long-range choices out there - and that's my main point. If everything else were equal, .308 would frankly suck gonads as a long-range round (it's all relative). But everything else is not equal - more selection of extremely high quality components - ammo and rifles - due (solely) to inertia. Therefore it's a pretty decent choice, and in fact, for most people, probably THE best choice if staying under 600 yards. And bbl life is excellent, so it's got that too. However, the gentleman going by "DemiGod LLC" says that .260 rem "blows away" (direct quote) the .308 in drop and drift at 1,000 yards. And that's a measly .260 rem, to say nothing of something like 6.5-284, .284 win, .280 rem AI, 7mm WSM, 7mm RSAUM, or even a properly built .243 win or other 6mm.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-s...6.5-creedmoor/

But then again, I guess you could say that all cartridges are "lacking" relative to the next bigger one, until you get to .375-408 Cheytac. I dunno. It's all relative to bbl burn and cost. But I think that the .308 could definitely said to be lacking when you could go to a *smaller* cartridge like .260 rem which still has very good barrel life, and: (a) "blows away" the .308 in drop and drift at 1K yards, according to a noted expert, AND (b) has less recoil, AND (c) has cheaper components - meaning bullets (brass and powder are the same roughly).

But you're right - due to inertia / existing options, .308 is a very good choice, sadly enough.

I guess maybe the best way to put is "big picture, .308 isn't lacking" but if you either reload and/or are patient enough to buy the highest quality ammo available, the .308 is lacking.

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Old March 5, 2014, 04:19 PM   #43
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Quote:
(a) "blows away" the .308 in drop and drift at 1K yards, according to a noted expert,
Well since you want to use articles by Zak Smith "Mr. Demigod LLC", here is what your noted expert has to say about the .308 Win. Check out page 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zak Smith
If you can only have one long-range precision rifle, it should be in .308 Winchester. Match-grade .308 ammunition is available everywhere, reloading recipes are well known and reloading it is easy, and in many rifles, the surplus 7.62x51 NATO ammunition from some countries will shoot 1.5 MOA or better, which is good enough for short-range (400 yards and closer) practice from less steady shooting positions such as offhand, kneeling, over barricades, or shooting at movers.
We weren't talking 1K yards as the OP only wanted to go to 800 yards to start. However once you get past maximum point blank range with any cartridge you have to start turning turrets and use holdover techniques. If your capable of reading wind and getting the range right you stand just as good of a chance of hitting your target with a the .308 Win as you do the .260 Win.

Quote:
AND (b) has less recoil,
Yes the .308 has more recoil. However it is usually around 1 ft-lbs of energy difference between the two with equal weight rifles.

Quote:
AND (c) has cheaper components - meaning bullets (brass and powder are the same roughly).
Not really I'm able to often buy .308 caliber bullets cheaper than 6.5. I'd call that one a wash.
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Old March 5, 2014, 07:11 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by dojer
like somebody who has no clue what's involved in getting reliable hits at such ranges. Certainly, a 308 won't reliably expand a big game softpoint beyond 500 yds, so such a hit would be extremely unlikely to result in a humane kill. If you can't afford to spend a lot more than that on the gun and scope, how can you possibly afford enough practice time and ammo to be able to make such shots? This sort of thing is basically a full time job, and it's still going to be subject to crippline animals, because they took a step with the bullet in flight, or a gust of wind came up, etc.
Again, the OP never specifically stated that he wanted to hunt game at 800 yards. He simply stated he wanted a rifle he could shoot to 800 yards and take deer and hog hunting with friends. I guess you could "assume" since he said he'll mainly use the rifle at the range he wants to shoot game at 800 yards.

It's also a good thing that you don't need reliable expansion to provide clean kills on game. Penetration to the vitals is what provides humane kills on animals. Expansion promotes trauma and aids in killing that is for sure, but it isn't needed. However, the main reason expanding ammunition is required by law is to prevent over penetration.

Price plays no factor into how well you can shoot at 800 yards. I routinely shoot to 600 on steel with rifles that cost far less than the OP's budget. Heaven forbid some of them don't even have optics on them. I can buy a new rifle for less than 1K with optics that I can easily take to 800+ yards. Just like this rifle "Ruger American nailing the plate at 1040 yards."

Quote:
Originally Posted by willams480
Hey folks,

I see there are some questions, so hope this helps.

The rifle is bone stock except for some added weight in the buttstock for balance (it was nose heavy with the scope), and relocated the bi-pod reward towards magazine to reduce stock twisting while trying to acquire the target and leveling the rifle.

I'm using a Vortex Viper 6.5-20X50PA scope and Wheeler level.
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Old March 5, 2014, 07:38 PM   #45
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dojer- I am trying to understand your post?. At 500 yards the bullet is still well over 2600 fps. It will expand very fine. The 308 is very very much a high power and accurate round. More than capable of dropping animals at 500 yards ( which is not that far of a shot ). Any one that thinks a 308 is not a Long Range ( paper) target rifle has no expirence shooting that round at all. As of last year at the Grand Master Match in Montana a 308 took 3rd place at 1000 yards,beating a pile full of 6.5 ,260, ect ect. Thousand of people shoot deer at 400 plus yards every year with no difficulty. There is a old saying about the 308. ( take it for what its worth). The 308 is great at everything and the best at nothing.It is just a all around great round period.
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Old March 5, 2014, 09:21 PM   #46
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Savage 10 FP with any 3-9x optic that has hash marks in the reticle. I had great results with Federal Gold Medal Match 168 grain 308 Winchester. Hitting steel at 1,000 yards in the Wyoming wind was not a problem.

The main thing is to get proper instruction if you are new to the long range game. Don't get too wrapped up in all the details; just get on the range and shoot.
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Old March 5, 2014, 10:04 PM   #47
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dojer-You are so wrong. I shoot a 168 gn at just shy of 2700 fps. At 500 yards it is still at 2649 fps. Im not sure where you get your info from,but you need to re check it. 2700 fps is very do able in a 308. I have a 24 inch barrel and use this for FTR class at 800 and 1000 yards with ease. For practice- I use no flags,never have used a spotter. And because you seem to think 500 yards is a hard shot,means nothing my friend. Now I do not endorse hunting at 500 yards in any way shape or form,but don't make it sound like a Hail Mary shot for some one with expirence.
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Old March 5, 2014, 10:18 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by 4runnerman
dojer- I am trying to understand your post?. At 500 yards the bullet is still well over 2600 fps.
Your about 1000 fps off, a 165-168 grain bullet will have around 1800 fps. That is where most bullet manufacturers set a minimum speed for optimal expansion. The thing is even a tough bullet like a mono metal will still deform at slow speeds and have some expansion it isn't the ideal situation but it'll still work as long as you put the bullet where it belongs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dojer
It takes a hot load and a long barrel, for a 308 Win to get 2700 fps with a 165gr btsp, or bthp, at the MUZZLE
Not really, considering the SAAMI specs for the cartridge have it with a max pressure of 62,000 PSI. There are several powders out there that will get you to nearly 2800 fps out of a 24" barrel with 165 grain bullet without going over 60,000 psi. A 20" barrel won't reach 2700 fps but it'll get around 2650+/- with the same loads. 22-24" have been the standard length barrel in the industries for several years on hunting rifles so I wouldn't call them long. The loads may be max but they aren't what I'd call hot.
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Old March 5, 2014, 10:18 PM   #49
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That's 50 yards, maybe, but not 500... Using extremely generous data, a .308 Win is doing 1800-1900 fps at 500 yards. Realistically it'd be slower than that.

Edit- taylorce posted while I was typing...
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Old March 5, 2014, 10:28 PM   #50
Metal god
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Join Date: April 10, 2012
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 2,031
My ballistic calc shows 175gr smk , 2700fps at muzzle will have a velocity of 1932fps at 500yds and thats being nice by giving it a BC of .5 and some altitude
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