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Old February 9, 2014, 04:30 PM   #51
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raimius
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Simple, as long as we're talking about handguns. One doesn't use a "high ready" with a handgun.

In something on the order of 300+ hours of handgun training, I've never seen a "high ready" taught or used.
Recommend we move this rabbit hole here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541544

I think we may have been talking past each other. I wasn't talking about the Charlie's Angels "High Ready" as defined in the linked thread, which I think is what you are talking about. I meant the 45 degree "Modified High Ready." Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
I stand by my comments.

The article you linked to in the thread you linked to above is the first I've ever seen of any sort of a "high ready" suggested for a handgun. I have no information on the credentials of the author of that article, Richard Nance.

In any case, I see no need of or purpose for that ready position and it has not been, as far as I know, actually adopted in any serious handgun training doctrine.
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Old February 9, 2014, 06:03 PM   #52
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I was a City Cop from 68-86 in the late revolver years we were issued the Bianchi Judge front break holster with a covered trigger they were fast and your finger landed right by the trigger on the draw. just after I retired the Dept transitioned to the Sig 9mm.
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Old February 9, 2014, 11:27 PM   #53
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Americans have an almost ingrained belief that a "proper" holster is one that allows the gun to be drawn (and fired) in the easiest, most expeditious manner possible/practical. No one else does (unless they have adopted the American attitude).
You say this as if it were a bad thing, and because no one else does it, it must be so .....

Quote:
Even our GI flap holster works faster than other nations versions. Germany went through both world wars with full flap holsters that buckled shut. We had a holster, they had a luggage case.
Since the principal advantage of a handgun is that it is handier than a long gun (at the expense of being relatively low powered), I see no reason to tote one around in a luggage case. Either it is immediately accessable, or it just dead weight.

I've read somewhere that most 20th century European militaries saw the pistol as a sort of badge of rank, much like the sword became after the advent of the rifled musket ..... the Americans, OTH ...... we wanted a handgun that would drop a horse, or a crazed Moro, and RIGHT NOW.

Quote:
Certainly there are better holsters for speed of the draw, and there are lots of circumstances where that is the paramount consideration. But there is nothing else that both allows you to have the gun on you, AND protects the gun from the elements as well as the flap holster.
Are guns and ammunition now so fragile that they must be protected from "the elements" ..... moreso than their bearer? I would hazard a guess that the flap holsters were a holdover from C&B black powder days, when one really had to "keep your powder dry" ..... once the self contained smokeless cartridge was perfected ..... not so necessary any longer, but militaries have greater organizational inertia than any other group, I think ....... nearly always gearing up to fight the last war......

"Organizational Inertia": that does explain a great many things, including why the NRA and various Hunter Ed programs still try and teach "The Ten Commandments of Gun Safety" to 10 year old kids, when the vast majority of people can remember no more than 5 related things in a group.......

Jeff Cooper codified the FOUR RULES going on 1/2 a century ago ...... everything you need, nothing you don't ..... yet there are always folk that think they have a better way ...... and because Jelly Bryce or Sykes and Whoever advocated having your finger on the trigger that makes it a good idea(FWIW, they advocated point shooting, as well) ..... do you see anyone today able to use their methods and come anywhere close to the times and number of hits attained by even an average IDPA participant?
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Old February 10, 2014, 07:49 AM   #54
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Quote:
Americans have an almost ingrained belief that a "proper" holster is one that allows the gun to be drawn (and fired) in the easiest, most expeditious manner possible/practical. No one else does (unless they have adopted the American attitude).

You say this as if it were a bad thing, and because no one else does it, it must be so .....
Actually, I think it puts us ahead of the curve...

Quote:
Even our GI flap holster works faster.... We had a holster, they had a luggage case.


Since the principal advantage of a handgun is that it is handier than a long gun (at the expense of being relatively low powered), I see no reason to tote one around in a luggage case. Either it is immediately accessable, or it just dead weight.
Here's where we get into attitudes and opinions about what's most important, what's right for the situation, and what the situations are. What things you give up, to get other things, and personal, vs. institutional doctrine.

There's a world of difference between what would be proper wear for dealing with the possible mugger coming out of the next alley and what's best for living in the field for weeks at a time, where the risk of needing the pistol instantly are lower.

Quote:
I've read somewhere that most 20th century European militaries saw the pistol as a sort of badge of rank, much like the sword became after the advent of the rifled musket ..... the Americans, OTH ...... we wanted a handgun that would drop a horse, or a crazed Moro, and RIGHT NOW.
Quite true, particularly for officers above platoon/company level. Another place America has been ahead of the curve for a long time, our pistol was also a pretty good defensive tool. Being able to drop a horse was one of the original requirements, you know...
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Old February 10, 2014, 10:33 AM   #55
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There's a world of difference between what would be proper wear for dealing with the possible mugger coming out of the next alley and what's best for living in the field for weeks at a time, where the risk of needing the pistol instantly are lower.
Having lived in the field for weeks (6 months, once!) at a time, I understand the problem pretty well ..... you still couldn't convince me to carry a handgun in a luggage case out there.
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Old February 10, 2014, 10:42 AM   #56
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Anybody that thinks the "high ready" is not taught AND used in the "real world" has no experience with the NSW guys.

Im no Ninja, but ive been around, seen and done some stuff in a lot of the worlds hotspot. All of the readies have a place. The ability to flow from one to another as the SITUATION dictates is one of the marks of a professional.

When i started in the contracting game i came from a pretty regimented school of thought. With an open mind i learned a bunch from some of the guys i worked with... Taught a little back as well

An open mind is the ticket
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Old February 13, 2014, 07:01 AM   #57
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Quote:
I stand by my comments.

The article you linked to in the thread you linked to above is the first I've ever seen of any sort of a "high ready" suggested for a handgun. I have no information on the credentials of the author of that article, Richard Nance.

In any case, I see no need of or purpose for that ready position and it has not been, as far as I know, actually adopted in any serious handgun training doctrine.
Photographic evidence seems to show that the Secret Service teach/taught it:








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Old February 13, 2014, 08:01 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by DT Guy
Photographic evidence seems to show that the Secret Service teach/taught it...
Your so called "evidence" photos show (1) an agent with what appears to be a long gun (a different matter entirely); and (2) an agent in a melee grappling (thus perhaps an improvised position). They are also of indeterminate age and provenance and are therefore meaningless.

However, I did just yesterday see this video in which the late Paul Gomez briefly discusses a sort of modified high ready (similar to that described by the OP in post 50). That is the first I've seen of a modern instructor with established credibility showing that sort of a ready position.
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Old February 13, 2014, 11:10 AM   #59
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The 'long gun' is being held with one hand and has no stock deployed; pretty much the definition of a 'handgun', isn't that?

And there are photos throughout that incident that show agents in 'high ready' whether engaged or not; they stood point over Pres. Reagan in high ready.

It was not really indeterminate age, either; Reagan was only shot the once.

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Old February 13, 2014, 11:43 AM   #60
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I don't have it in front of me, so I'll have to double check when I get home, but doesn't Mas Ayoob suggest high ready as preferable to low ready in Stressfire v.1?
It's easier to maintain control of the weapon and force it down onto target in the event of a struggle.
Maybe what I'm thinking of isn't high ready, but unless I'm misremembering his illustrations definitely have the gun pointed above the line of the target.
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Old February 13, 2014, 11:44 AM   #61
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...And there are photos throughout that incident that show agents in 'high ready' whether engaged or not;...
You chose the photos to show, and we can only go by the photos you did show. Photos you chose not to show are irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT Guy
...It was not really indeterminate age, either; Reagan was only shot the once...
Yes, but you didn't identify the event, although we might have guessed. But you have no business expecting us to guess.

And in any case, Reagan was shot in 1981 -- some 33 years ago. A lot has changed in handgun doctrine in 33 years.

We're discussing current best practices.
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Old February 13, 2014, 11:53 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by dayman
I don't have it in front of me, so I'll have to double check when I get home, but doesn't Mas Ayoob suggest high ready as preferable to low ready in Stressfire v.1?...
Again, Stressfire, v. 1 dates form the early 1980s.

When I took LFI-1 in 2008, we worked exclusively with low-ready. When I was an assistant instructor a for MAG-40 class in 2010, we also used only low-ready.
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Old February 13, 2014, 12:12 PM   #63
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Guys, get over yourselves

There is NO SUCH THING as best ready. They all have a purpose.

If im moving thru a dirt floored house in A-stan i may want my mzl to point down. If its a concrete floored warehouse stateside down might not be the best choice.

Solo bad guy in an empty parking lot... My mzl my point pretty much straight at him. Crowded restaurant after a robbery goes bad, SUL might be the best choice.

Anybody that says this is the only way to do it.... 1 is a crappy instructor 2 prob doesnt have much real world exp

I dislike the phrase but it applies here....TOOL IN THE TOOL BAG!!!!
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Old February 13, 2014, 01:31 PM   #64
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It may be from the 80's but "stress fire" still a pretty widely respected book, and represents well thought out and researched ideas. It's also got to be one of the most widely read and well known "how to shoot" books out there.

He may have changed his mind since then but he did make a pretty convincing argument for high ready, and apparently hasn't felt the need to redact it out of current editions.

In not claiming that high ready is in vogue right now (or that it's the best), but it's not as if it's an unheard of concept.
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Old February 13, 2014, 03:23 PM   #65
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The larger question, Frank, is 33 years later, what would YOU suggest those agents should be using in that situation?

And apologies for not identifying the incident; I considered those photos iconic, in the same way the Kennedy assassination photos are, and forgot some might not recognize them.


High ready has a place; I believe those photos, regardless of age, show one prime example of such a place.

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Old February 13, 2014, 03:49 PM   #66
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I haven't been in many firefights with a pistol. The times I was involved in such an event, I used the finger aside the trigger out of the trigger guard on one event, and finger on the trigger in another. The situation dictates which to use. There are no hard and fast rules in a gun fight other than 'don't lose.'
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Old February 13, 2014, 04:06 PM   #67
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Fingers on the trigger

Quote:
Originally Posted by DT Guy View Post
The larger question, Frank, is 33 years later, what would YOU suggest those agents should be using in that situation? ...

In that sort of situation it's not a matter of a ready position. It's a matter of keeping the gun out of the way and under control.

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Old February 13, 2014, 05:04 PM   #68
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So why not train to prepare for that?



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Old February 13, 2014, 05:19 PM   #69
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So why not train to prepare for that?...
Absolutely. But we'd be training for moving among and with people in a dynamic, close contact, evolving situation. One doesn't train for that of the square range with live ammunition.

One trains for it in a group with inert "blue" training guns.
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Old February 13, 2014, 06:54 PM   #70
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The Army Way

I'm responding to the OP's concern about military training that just doesn't seem right. It doesn't have to be right. When I arrived in basic training in 1966, the drill sergeant made it extremely clear to this smart-ass recruit that "there's the right way, the wrong way and the Army way! You will do everything the Army way! I will tell you what that is!" Sort of stuck with me.

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Old February 13, 2014, 09:56 PM   #71
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I think that there are "best practices" in training. These should give shooters the skills to successfully navigate a wide variety of situations while being efficient, fast, accurate, and safe. There are lots of "good" answers, while real life may not have just one "best" answer.

We could all train to fight with Russian back-flip hatchet attacks, but that isn't appropriate (efficient, fast, accurate, and safe) compared to other techniques, for most situations!

As for military training, there are times when you have to go with the flow. If it works adequately, you may have to just shut up and color. If you are sure their is a better way, and can do it correctly, then do so when the opportunity presents itself. That said, if someone advocates a dangerous technique without appropriate training or safeguards, SPEAK UP.
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Old March 19, 2014, 11:08 AM   #72
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At the risk of dredging up an older thread:

I think finger off the trigger IS the best practice for SA or Glock style (mid weight, short pull) triggers.


That said should heavy DA triggers be subject to the same rules?


Obviously, no one should be running around with a finger on the trigger but while in a more advanced threat level where having to fire may be imminent, I'm not sure whether it is more unsafe to have a ready finger in position on a 12# trigger with close to 1" of travel or trying to quickly get an accurate shot at 15yds starting with an untensioned finger.

Not being rhetorical, I really am unsure and don't yet have a strong position yet. I do think a heavy, long DA first pull is a different beast than shorter/lighter triggers. And I wonder how many shooter will pull the first shot trying to snap into a heavy DA trigger?
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Old March 19, 2014, 11:17 AM   #73
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...That said should heavy DA triggers be subject to the same rules?...
Yes:
  1. We build good habits by doing things the same way all the time.

  2. Ergonomically guns are designed so the finger will fall naturally on the trigger. That's how guns work. So initially developing the consistent habit of keeping the finger off the trigger and indexed along the frame requires conscious thought and conditioning. Ultimately it will become a habit, but it needs to be done consistently to reliably become a habit.

  3. See this post for a discussion of interlimb interaction.
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Old March 19, 2014, 12:19 PM   #74
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I agree with both Frank and Willie. The initial draw should always be finger outside the trigger guard. However as the threat increases, it makes sense to put the finger on the trigger on double action revolvers.
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Old March 19, 2014, 08:23 PM   #75
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....However as the threat increases, it makes sense to put the finger on the trigger on double action revolvers.
Not really. In a high stress situation a 12 pound trigger pull will, under the influence of adrenalin, feel like nothing. The risk of an unintended discharge remains very real. So if you are not on target about to shoot or shooting, the finger is off the trigger and indexed on the frame.

See this thread about what can happen when the finger finds the trigger at the wrong time.
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