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Old January 30, 2014, 05:18 AM   #51
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Well, Mystro, your continued diatribes only serve to make the point that large numbers of threads and posts are no guarantee that motives are always well-intended nor that credibility can necessarily be assumed. I like to give any newcomer the benefit of the doubt as to his intentions and to extend a sincere welcome to him to the forum before accusing him of lying or labeling him a troll, no matter how much I might be in disagreement with the content of his thread.

NavyChief submitted a thread to complain about a pricey rifle that he thought lacked a lot in the way of workmanship and described what he considered to be flaws (and, if he is to be believed, the defects are indeed appalling). So he didn't provide a picture of the rifle. Big deal. I've participated in this forum for close to ten years and I've never posted a photo. Does that in any way impugn my character or make my posts any less legitimate?

If NavyChief is nothing more than a "troll" and his purpose for joining the forum was soley to "get a rise" from fellow members, his motives will become clear soon enough. Until then, I will reiterate my heartfelt welcome to the new member and hope that his initial negative experience with The Firing Line will not deter him from contributing useful and educative inputs in the future. Welcome aboard NavyChief!
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Old January 30, 2014, 03:06 PM   #52
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dgludwig, where were guys like you and Allen when I was being made fun of and drug through the dirt on the CastBoolits forum for complaining about the recoil of a Shiloh Sharps 45-90? They chewed me up and spit me out calling me everything but a wimp for being bruised over a caliber that some claimed they shot all day. I posted a picture of what the rifle did to me and was told I was hunched over the rifle like a monkey and that's why I got bruised. I looked like I had been hit with a truck. Where were you then to take up for me like this guy? Not one soul took to my defense, not one.

I didn't grab my hat and head for the door. I shrugged it off and continued listening to maybe why it happened. I knew why it happened. Number one, I'm one three blood thinners. It's not my choice but if I intend on keeping my leg and foot I have to take them. Plavix and Warfarin make you bleed very easily and profusely as well as causing bruises. Moreover, that skinny, crescent, steel butt plate didn't help. I didn't write Shiloh and tell them the problem and that they should have put a wider, softer butt plate on it for guys like me. It was my fault for buying it knowing it had a skinny, steel butt plate.

If the Navy Chief would have only posted photos of what he was discontent with, I can assure you neither myself nor Mystro would have responded as we did. This is the Internet. You never know people's intentions when they start a thread. If his were good, and I'm not doubting it wasn't, he should have given evidence of what he was talking about. I'm over this.
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Old January 30, 2014, 03:49 PM   #53
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CC... I remember that thread... I didn't beat you up too bad did I
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Old January 30, 2014, 04:30 PM   #54
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Nah, not too bad...Don and John Boy did, though. Kenny didn't help
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Old January 30, 2014, 04:35 PM   #55
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Well I knew you were on blood thinners, as soon as I saw the pictures
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Old January 30, 2014, 05:59 PM   #56
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I never had anything happen like that in the nine years I've been on those things. If I had my way, and I don't, I'd throw them in the toilet. I get bruises on my hands and arms and don't even know where I got them or how. They just show up.
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Old January 30, 2014, 07:31 PM   #57
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ColColt, If I remember correctly I gave my standard answer to everything "put a brake on it."
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Old January 30, 2014, 07:35 PM   #58
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Very possible...I can't remember. That's been a while back and I can't remember last week most of the time. I got shed of that rifle, sold it to an unsuspecting forum member. I'll keep my Browning BPCR 45-70. No more bruisers.
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Old January 31, 2014, 09:16 AM   #59
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Picture of the bolt and extractor on my gun

Mystro, I couldn't help but notice that your extractor and bolt don't look identical to the one on my gun, but I guess they are the same, regardless of the jeweling and lapped lugs.http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...1&d=1391177450
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Old January 31, 2014, 09:35 AM   #60
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Our stocks are so similar I can hardly tell them apart

"Other than the butt plate difference, no one could tell them apart. Even the grade of wood was very subjective if there was any difference. There is no more time, Fitment, or effort put into either gun"

That was your quote and here is a picture of my stock and my jeweled bolt and extractor, lapped lugs, and action. How can you not tell the difference between the two?

I still don't understand why Mr. Mystro has a problem with me voicing (or typing) my displeasure, with MY gun. I'll guarantee you that Jack O'Connor never kept his mouth closed, or his typewriter silent, when he was displeased with anything, especially guns. If Mr. Biesen would have handed Mr. O'Connor the gun that I received, he would have raised 9 kinds of hell and then put it in ink.
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Old January 31, 2014, 10:00 AM   #61
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Quote:
Plavix and Warfarin make you bleed very easily and profusely as well as causing bruises.
I've taken blood thinners for nearly 30 years. You need to be careful about the caliber of the guns that you shoot. I have had two doctors caution me about heavy recoiling rifles / shotguns because there is the possibility of the recoil causing brain hemorrhages.

The largest rifle I shoot now is my .308 - and that has a muzzle brake. My shotgun has a recoil system in the stock. I've shot my guns safely for 30 years, but I've quit shooting my 30-338, 45-70, etc. as the recoil transferred to my head from the cheek weld on the stock is probably too much.

Just passing on a word of caution given to me on two separate occasions by two different doctors - you may want to check with yours and see what he/she tells you.
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Old January 31, 2014, 11:20 AM   #62
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NavyChief,...I hope Winchester works it out for you and may it be a great shooter. Be looking forward to its first range report.
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Old January 31, 2014, 11:45 PM   #63
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For Mr. Colt and the gentlemen who responded to my thread

Sorry but I will not address you as a Colonel without any pictures to substantiate such a claim. My information is readily available on the internet as I was the program manager for the prison facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba for my last tour of duty and the leading Chief for Special Programs, Code 4010, at Navy Personnel Command here in Tennessee before that. I did not post any pictures of the stock because I had the stock shipped back shortly after it arrived in the morning at my FFL dealer. I only made the post to see if anyone else had experienced anything like I had seen with my gun. I only came to this board because I had PM'd Mr. Mystro on the Winchester owners site and also saw that his review was posted on here. I normally frequent 24 hour campfire but I read a lot more than I have posted over the last decade or so. I was more than a little disappointed with the rhetoric and childish posts from you and Mystro regarding what I considered to be a serious subject on my part and an attempt to get some information out there and see if anyone else had any experience similar to mine. I do thank the other gentlemen who made relevant posts and provided adult commentary. I had hoped that I had found another forum where there were men of high character with good discipline and order that I could fraternize with concerning all firearms and hunting subjects. I will not let a few childish posts from those who could be anyone or anything, from a 14 year old child simply trolling for an argument to an anti-gun protester trying to be an irritant to gun owners, ever deter me from using this forum and giving it a fair chance. Hopefully these 2 flaws I have found on this forum are as rare as the flaws I found with my JOC stock from Winchester. Just as I will not judge Winchester or their custom shop on the whole for one product that I received that is subpar, neither shall I judge this forum for very much the same reason. Also, I do not remember who asked the question about production runs but it is a very valid one but answered incorrectly by Mystro. The JOC Custom Tribute will have a run of 500 units total and the JOC Tribute will have 420 Units made. MSRP is $2,599.99 and $1,999.99 respectively. Also the JOC was introduced at the same time the Winchester Model 70 75th Anniversary Super Grade was produced, specifically for the occasion, but should not be confused for the JOC . I look forward to reviewing more posts and hopefully some new threads on this forum. I do hope this thread can be laid to rest but still serve as an example of the various classes of individuals that can be encountered on this forum. I make no apologies to anyone for posting this thread and the information I did before having achieved a specific status or paygrade on this forum. Having spent the last 40 years of my life as a gun owner and the last quarter century using them professionally as well as recreational, I feel I can evaluate the quality of a fine gun when I see and inspect one. I also have owned at least 20 Model 70's over the years. In fact I sold 4 or 5 recently through Colonel Craig Boddington's Facebook page and the guns (3 of which are Winchester Model 70 Custom guns) can be seen there. I also own a few Kimber, more Brownings, and a few other custom long guns so I am not new to fine guns by any means. Thanks again for those who provided valuable input and thank you too, to those who showed themselves for who and what they are so I can evaluate your input accurately in the future. I look forward to learning in the future and I'll never know too much to learn something new everyday. Sincerely, James C. Beel Jr. CTTC(SW), USN, Ret.

Last edited by NavyChief; February 1, 2014 at 03:14 AM. Reason: Responsible adults are willing to attach their name to their posts.
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Old February 1, 2014, 12:16 PM   #64
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So, why are you unhappy with the best rifle Winchester has yet to put out? Care to elaborate?
And I thought the Model of 1917 was the best rifle Winchester ever put out.
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Old February 1, 2014, 12:26 PM   #65
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I too take exception with Mystro and his pontification.

How NavyChief elects to deal with his gun is up to him, not Mystro.

For whatever reason Mystro wants to beat NavyChief into the ground and not let him discuss his issues.

If Mystro wants to strut and brag then he should make his own post or open up a Web site that allows him to gather converts to worship him.

There are words for people like that, disrespectful of a poster is the most mild one.
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Old February 1, 2014, 09:35 PM   #66
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I will not let a few childish posts from those who could be anyone or anything, from a 14 year old child simply trolling for an argument to an anti-gun protester trying to be an irritant to gun owners, ever deter me from using this forum and giving it a fair chance.
Give it a "fair chance", NavyChief. There's an awful lot of The Firing Line members who are helpful, insightful and empathetic to your concerns. I think you might have a lot to offer in terms of being "educational" and I hope that you're not deterred from further participation in the forum by a few malcontents. Hang in there sir.
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Old February 1, 2014, 09:46 PM   #67
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I, for one, didn't think NavyChief was treated right by a few folks. I hope he'll stick around. And I hope he realizes that most of us are pretty easy to get along with.
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Old February 1, 2014, 10:34 PM   #68
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Encouraging signs already

Thanks for the postings gentlemen. I do look forward to using this forum in the future but I normally just prefer to read and not post unless I feel I have something worthwhile to contribute to the conversation. I do thank you for your recent posts. They give me more confidence in this forum and they certainly added something worthwhile to the thread. Jim
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Old February 2, 2014, 10:20 AM   #69
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Wow, I hesitate to post again but just to clarify any tongue and check banter that might have been taken a tad too seriously...????...I reread this whole thread again and can't believe anyone can take some of the light hearted banter seriously. None of use take ourselves that seriously . Many new forum guest might not be able to interpret this so I wanted to clarify it as to not have any hurt feelings. In the grand scheme of gun forums, this one is very mild and civil to say the least and doesnt require very thick skin as most other forums do. Stick around, you will see we all are more silly than anything to get worked up about.

Once again to some up any misconstrued intent......I hope Winchester works it out for you and looking forward to its first range report. Many will not shoot their JOC so its always nice to see one being shot.
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Old February 2, 2014, 12:40 PM   #70
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Good to hear Mr. Mystro

My sincere apologies there Mr. Mystro. I was unaware that you spoke for EVERYONE on the forum as indicated by your NONE OF US statement. However, you may want to contact some of the other gentlemen who posted on this thread and do not agree with your statement and let them know how this thing works. Maybe one poster had it best, perhaps you should be the one who remains quiet on this post and site or get your own website where you can decide who gets to speak, and of course on what subjects, and you could take your likeminded people with you. The new site would be a great boost for your personal gratification and allow you complete control and censorship of the posters. I know, you promote both the first amendment for everyone, as long as you get to decide what they say. Again, no apologies for my opinions and the facts that I have stated in this forum. And if you ever read anything or knew anything about Mr. O'Connor and his propensity to translate his opinions to the shooting public you would laugh at yourself for the overwhelming majority of your posts. Mr. O'Connor would have been, and possibly is, very proud of my behavior on this forum and I am sure he would have done very much the same ad he been in my situation. After all, wasn't he dissatisfied with Winchester stocks and some of the fitting in the first place which resulted in Mr. Biesen taking the gun purchased at a hardware store by Mr. O'Connor and "give it a level of elegance befitting its performance", (Petzal, D.E., 2012) since it shot 1" groups back in 1959?

References
Petzal, D.E., (2012) Jack O'Connor's Legendary No.2 Rifle, Field & Stream, Bonnier Group: New York, NY.
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Old February 2, 2014, 12:49 PM   #71
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ROFL...Are you kidding me???? Can you possibly be any more petty???? I have to laugh at this kind of rantings because otherwise its disturbingly passive/aggressive. ..... I expected a military man to have a little more class. Way to take the highroad and continue to bicker like a child. Cant just shake hands and move on can you?? The opportunity was there.

You PM me out of the blue a while ago for help with some scope rings and I quickly got back to you for help. I was good enough to ask valuable information then but now you are questioning anything I say???



I will take all my posts out of your thread as so they are not misinterpreted or taken out of context.


You establish your own kind of forum reputation but I dont want to be anyway near your rantings.

I dont know if you are having a bad day or haven't thought this through but,..I am not getting baited into this kind of crap nor do I need to validate any of my experience on the topic at hand.
Good luck on the forum....
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Old February 2, 2014, 04:16 PM   #72
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Simmer down, Mystro. I'm sure that NavyChief was just engaging in some of that "light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek" banter you speak of so often. But, more to the point, I really am interested in how Winchester deals with the O'Connor "special edition" Model 70 rifle. Please keep us apprised of all ensuing developments, NavyChief.
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Old February 2, 2014, 07:02 PM   #73
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Try not to take this too serious, good advice I think.

Mr. Mystro, I am having a fine day and thank you for asking. Maybe you are taking this forum way too serious yourself. Or perhaps I have misinterpreted the BOLD and ALL CAPS wording that you use in your posts. I do appreciate your input when I asked previously regarding the base and mounts that you used and I believe I said so in my PM's. I am not trying to bait you into anything, I just wanted you to understand that I felt as if you were trying to either keep me quiet regarding the problems with my gun, which you actually did post and PM me that I should not post any negative data until Winchester had a chance to fix the problems with the gun, and I disagreed. I want to hear from anyone else who may have had these types of problems. I never was upset with your bickering or posts but I did think they were a little childish at a couple of points, particularly when you had a companion join you. I hold no grudges against you and no ill will. I do however believe I have conducted myself with the class that is befitting a US Navy Chief and you were the one who posted that no one on the forum takes any of this stuff serious. You will just have to trust me and believe that I never did have any real emotions regarding your postings. Those were your words and your communication and if you want to remove them from any public record then feel free to do so. If I had posted anything like many of your posts, I too would want to take those words back so that no one else might judge me or somehow link me to those words lest my character be judged by them directly. I will leave all of my words and posts on this thread because I want to be honest with everyone and make sure that if I am to be judged then it will be on the whole and not simply what I decide to censor. I do think before I speak and/or post anything on the internet and yes I do have a reputation of high character which is why I posted my full name, previous rank/rate and warfare qualification on my post. If you need some type of internet handshake to feel better about yourself then by all means I offer my hand to you but I don't need an apology for anything anyone has ever posted on the internet on any of my threads or posts. When people post on a forum they use their own their words and they own them. They do not affect me in any way unless I choose to use them.

Last edited by NavyChief; February 2, 2014 at 07:38 PM.
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Old February 2, 2014, 07:36 PM   #74
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Response to Mr. Ludwig

I do plan to post the entire episode from start to finish with Winchester and this particular gun. I see no reason why they can't make this right and they should be able to re-cut the checkering, fix the fitting with the ebony forend tip, and fit the metal buttplate correctly. I don't think they can float the bbl because they only wanted the stock but I have floated and bedded numerous rifles over the years and I always have a supply of Brownell's accaglass gel on hand. It was actually floated about 8 inches up the stock so I should be able to remove a little material, reseal, and be OK. If it requires any more work than that then Winchester is better prepared for it than I am. While I do have quite a bit of experience with accurizing and repairing rifles, the majority of my work is performed with small scale power tools and accessories. I do not own any CNC machinery or a large scale lathe. This gun is far too expensive for me to begin to work on any wood outside the inner barrel channel. Winchester said about 4 weeks so I should know something by then. In the meantime I plan to mount the scope I bought for the rifle (Leupold VX III 2.5 X 8 X 36) to make sure that everything fits and is correct. I have 3 or 4 old Winchester stocks in the attic for post 64 model 70's so I will use one of those for eye relief. Well the DVR is on and it's time for the game so I'll get off of here but I will check in with updates and post the status. I have faith in Winchester and they should be able to get this fixed but there is some aggravation with having to wait. My fault for being impatient but man it's hard not to be when I finally found the right gun, paid the asking price, waited for a week for it to arrive and have to ship the stock out the day I get it. Well, deployments were always a lot longer than 4 weeks so I'll just try to treat it like that. In the meantime I bought a new Browning A-5 so I can go out and play with it. Talk to everyone later but I gotta go for now and get to the game. Jim
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Old February 2, 2014, 10:33 PM   #75
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I took Mystro exactly the way NavyChief has portrayed him so aptly and is more than justified in refusing the lame apology,.

I think he is back-pedling now that others have finally stepped up and directly supported NavyChief (others did continue the discussion in the vein it should have but did not condemn Mystro for being a jerk (and so be it if I get censored). Sometimes you need to speak up. Mystro and his like count on the silence.

Its about as rude as I have seen anyone treated. And no, I will not lighten up Mystro, I believe you speak with forked tongue.
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