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Old January 29, 2014, 12:51 AM   #1
tahunua001
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cartridge advice double standards.

hello all, sorry about this rant ahead of time.
why is it that if a person poses a hypothetical situation, whereby they are looking to hunt game animals and looking for advice on caliber/bullet options/reloading data, ETC, is there always a double standard?

I have seen it multiple times where a person asks a question about deer hunting and the overwhelming majority vote is that it doesn't matter what you load up, the deer will end up dead no matter how large as long as the bullet goes where it's supposed to and the shooter sticks to the range requirements of the cartridge. however if the OP asks about grazing the lower end of a larger weight game class, even specifying small specimens, automatically his cartridge is completely inadequate and should not be used.

I am completely beside myself on this. so a cartridge that can kill any deer in north america(about 250 pounds roughly) with any hunting bullet, even when loaded with the best ammo available is incapable of killing a 350 pound cow elk? where does this come from?
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Old January 29, 2014, 07:04 AM   #2
Old Stony
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I think a guy can take a lot of advice on cartridges here with a grain of salt. Granted...there are some people here with knowledge about this stuff, but there are a lot more with theoretical knowledge and hypothetical situations. Some of us have lots of experience with different guns and calibers and some just talk. A lot more here have guns that also shoot sub moa than I would personally believe.
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Old January 29, 2014, 09:01 AM   #3
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Yes, Old Stoney is right. That grain of salt is necessary. As for the advice on cartridges, scopes, specific bullets, and such as that, I think that most of the feedback you'll get is useful to some degree, but there's a percentage of the info that isn't worth much. There's always the guy that hunts moose with the 223 or that guy that shoots groundhogs with a 300 Win Mag.

And aren't there a lot of fellows that are shooting 1/2 groups with every rifle they have. To me, that seems statistically improbable, but this is a shooting forum and not a missing forum.
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Old January 29, 2014, 09:09 AM   #4
NoSecondBest
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Quote:
I think a guy can take a lot of advice on cartridges here with a grain of salt. Granted...there are some people here with knowledge about this stuff, but there are a lot more with theoretical knowledge and hypothetical situations. Some of us have lots of experience with different guns and calibers and some just talk. A lot more here have guns that also shoot sub moa than I would personally believe.
Old Stoney, you are spot on!!! I call most of the "expert" advice on here R&R Advice.....Read and Regurgitate. Most of the "experts" gained their knowledge from the other "experts" on here. I shot major competitions for many years and did very well at it. I can't figure out where these guys do all their remarkable shooting, I never saw them. Groups sub .5moa "all day long"? Way too many of them making that claim. A few, a rare few, maybe. Just too many on here to believe. Oh well, it's the internet. Keyboard groups and keyboard deer, bear, and elk too. About ten percent of the advice on here is good and the rest is all over the map.
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Old January 29, 2014, 09:13 AM   #5
Nathan
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Often advice is based on the option of being able to buy a new gun.

If I say what 44 mag load for brown bear, most will say buy something else. If is were to say no can do, most would just call me names. That said, I think it becomes hard for most to offer prudent advice like 300gr FP cast as fast as possible.

I think that is how the double std plays out.

Then when you consider that the people answering have likely 0 experience with 44 on brown bear, what do we do?
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Old January 29, 2014, 09:56 AM   #6
AllenJ
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Good rant Tahunua001, and so true. To many people are expressing opinions not based on experience, but rather on what the think or feel. Even worse, they may have been taught wrong to begin with and don't know any better. The bottom line is it's up to reader to filter out those opinions and try to use the advice for what it is, just advice.
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Old January 29, 2014, 10:18 AM   #7
Brian Pfleuger
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It seems to me that what you describe is relatively rare. Far more often, what I see is that the "requirements" for each animal are at least a full power level, and usually a couple, higher than are required.

For example, yes, there are folks who say a .243 will kill every deer walking but practically bounces off elk but there are a lot more who think you can't barely kill deer with a .243. I've even seen claims that a .308Win is a "300 yard deer gun".

Besides this forum, I know guys personally who won't hunt deer with anything less than a 30 cal and prefer even that to be a magnum.

So, I agree that what you're complaining about is stupid but I feel like it's the minority.



Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSecondBest View Post
Old Stoney, you are spot on!!! I call most of the "expert" advice on here R&R Advice.....Read and Regurgitate. Most of the "experts" gained their knowledge from the other "experts" on here. I shot major competitions for many years and did very well at it. I can't figure out where these guys do all their remarkable shooting, I never saw them. Groups sub .5moa "all day long"? Way too many of them making that claim. A few, a rare few, maybe. Just too many on here to believe. Oh well, it's the internet. Keyboard groups and keyboard deer, bear, and elk too. About ten percent of the advice on here is good and the rest is all over the map.

On the other hand, there's a great many folks who HEAVILY over value "personal experience" and completely ignore the combined knowledge of others. As in, I shot a deer with X and never found it. I *know* the shot was perfect! Therefore X is a poor deer cartridge and I'll never use it again and you shouldn't either.

Years of experience is one thing, even though still rarely statistically relevant when we're talking about hunting, but most of these kinds of comments are focused on singular incidents which hold no relevance at all.

The folks who want to talk 1/2 MOA all day groups usually don't understand statistics but the folks who argue "I did this 3, 4, 5 times...." are really making the exact same claims. I did it 5 times so it is the expected result, same fallacy whether holes in paper or shooting animals.
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Old January 29, 2014, 10:21 AM   #8
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At the same time though; if you go out and solicit advice publicly you are bound to get a wide range of answers. It is up to the questioner to filter this out. It's the same everywhere you go. We all do it to some extent.

I've seen some really well thought-out and beautifully presented responses on forums over the years. You tend to watch for those guys and read what is being said. Others, not so much. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to throw a question out there. None of us know everything, least of all me. And I've been shooting/reloading/hunting/bullet casting/competing for 35 years. Sometimes I think I'm dumber now than I was at 25.
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Old January 29, 2014, 10:24 AM   #9
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About 50 years ago, a salty old guy told me to get a .30-06 and shoot everything fair chase allows. And I did, and I do.
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Old January 29, 2014, 10:46 AM   #10
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Strafer Gott
Quote:
About 50 years ago, a salty old guy told me to get a .30-06 and shoot everything fair chase allows. And I did, and I do.
Word.
Although I have gone down to 260 Rem for an antelope stopper, I can see where my 30-06 overlaps pretty much everything I own.

If I had bought a 270 winchester rifle before my 30-06, I probably would be equally happy with that, but my 30-06 will always be my first thought rifle when considering a hunt.
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Old January 29, 2014, 11:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myfriendis410
Sometimes I think I'm dumber now than I was at 25.
The beginning of wisdom is when you realize not how much more you know now than you did then but how much farther there still is to go.
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Old January 29, 2014, 11:42 AM   #12
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What I find ironic is when someone comes and asks advice on a bullet/caliber combo for a specific hunting scenario and then gets upset when the majority of responses is negative or not in agreement with them.

....as in,
Quote:
Hey guys, I just got the new 80 gr "thumper" bullet for reloading .44 mag and am planning on using it for hunting elk this fall. Any body got any good load recipes for using it at 300 yards and getting a DRT outta my 3'' 629 snub?
Then gets mad and we never see them again when told it is not the best thing since buttered bread.
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Old January 29, 2014, 12:37 PM   #13
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I hear what you are saying. My take is that nobody can agree on stuff like caliber selection so you will always have disagreements, just the way it is. Couple that with the inherent need to argue on the internet...

Quote:
so a cartridge that can kill any deer in north america(about 250 pounds roughly) with any hunting bullet, even when loaded with the best ammo available is incapable of killing a 350 pound cow elk? where does this come from?
I have to admit though, having hunted both animals with the 243, I am in the camp that says the 243 is perfectly adequate for deer but is very marginal for elk. Having hunted elk for 20 years, I say that 100+ pounds and thicker bone/hide makes a lot of difference where the 243 is concerned. I've killed an elk with my 243. Shooting elk with the 243 is not for everyone, including myself. "Incapable" is extreme, but arguments against it are valid.

My point is not to argue with your example, but to point out that it's a unique situation that is apt to get more arguments than a more straight forward question. In these situations where there is a lot of gray area, I think you can expect more arguments. Especially on the 'net.
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Old January 29, 2014, 01:18 PM   #14
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Part of the problem is that many guys have not kept up with advancements in guns and ammo. They just keep repeating the tired old truism they heard from grandpa that are no longer true, if they ever were. A 308 in 2014 is loaded 100-200 fps faster than a 30-06 from the 1930's and is shooting much better quality bullets.

If this were true 50 years ago.

Quote:
About 50 years ago, a salty old guy told me to get a .30-06 and shoot everything fair chase allows.
Then a modern 308 is even better. Yet many still seem to think of the 308 as borderline, while the 30-06 is king.

The simple truth is that with modern bullets 7-08 up to 338 WM is a very small step up in performance. Anything in between is capable of any game in North America and while you could make a case that the 338 is a step ahead of 7-08, arguing about anything in between is splitting hairs. The only real difference is practical range.

That hasn't always been true. Take the 30-06 and 270 for example. In 1925 the 2 rounds were VERY different because of the way they were loaded and bullet technology of the day. At that time the 270 fired light 130 gr bullets very fast and flat. But bullet technology of the day did not allow those bullets to penetrate well on larger game. The 30-06 was loaded with heavy 180-220 gr bullets moving very slow. Bullet technology of the day needed those heavy bullets to penetrate.

Today modern 150 gr bullets from a 270 @ 3000 fps will penetrate and take any game a 30-06 will kill with heavier bullets. A 30-06 with 150 gr bullets @3100 fps will come so close to a 270 trajectory that very few can shoot well enough to ever notice. In 2014 the 2 are as close as it is possible to make two rounds, but you still see people giving the old worn out advice that a 270 shoots flatter and a 30-06 hits harder. That hasn't been true for decades.
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Old January 29, 2014, 01:45 PM   #15
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We are all humans, and as humans, we all need validation. This is especially true when it comes to a person and their choice of caliber. That is why people will argue tooth and nail for their cartridge, because they have to validate it in their mind. Being the loudest, and pounding their chest is just a physical manifestation of this need. Some people feel the need to bully (i.e. call people names or say their opinion is stupid) in order to further validate their choice. We now live in an age where this can be done with the touch of a fingertip.

I am a .264 caliber guy, and I do enjoy expounding on the virtues of this caliber. This caliber has worked excellently for me for deer hunting, and that is all the validation I need.
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Old January 29, 2014, 01:45 PM   #16
tahunua001
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lots of responses, lots of input.. I almost wish this thread could become a sticky. I understand the marginal characterists of 243. I grew up with one and it still sits in my safe and comes along every deer season at least once. however I would not pack it for elk unless I was using 115grain bergers loaded as hot as they'd go and keep to within 200 yards. similarly, I also know about overkill cartridges(not trying to step on toes here. I have hunted deer with 9mm, in fact my little brother, using my 30-06 using loads I intended for elk shot his deer in the exact same places I shot mine with the 9mm. he had a good 200 yards father to shoot than I did and he still ruined about 3 times more meat than I did but both deer dropped in their tracks. would I recommend a 9mm for everyone? no. I understand that it is something that should be used only by hunters that know when to pass up a shot that's less that ideal, but it is still more than capable of killing deer.
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Old January 29, 2014, 04:20 PM   #17
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I've heard it said many times that .243 is fine for kid. The assumption is that the young hunter will "graduate" to a bigger cartridge when he is an adult. Of course this line of reasoning has no merit. If a kid can kill a deer with his .243 then so can an adult. The advent of Premium bullets has upped .243 lethality quite a bit. Same is true of many other cartridges including 44MAG and 30-30.

A 350 lb cow elk is no more armor-plated than I am. Any bullet which crashes through the ribs and does damage to the chest organs will kill the animal. This is a plain fact of anatomy and tissue destruction.

Years ago, I hunted with a Cree guide for moose and caribou in Saskatchewan, Canada. His antique rifle had slain dozens and dozens of animals including huge moose and many bears yet it was certainly no magnum. The rifle was a Remington auto-loader in 35 Remington. This old cartridge fires a 200 grain round nose soft tip at medium velocity; energy figures are nearly same as 30-30 or 32 Special yet this hunter never "graduated" to a larger cartridge because his 35 worked quite well for him.

What's my point? Hunt close enough for reasonable shooting distance and place the bullet through the chest organs. The animal will die. The actual cartridge used is less relevant than many would believe.

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Old January 29, 2014, 06:38 PM   #18
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Advice is generally worth what you pay for it.....

I think you need to weight the consensus and the source of the info on any topic and firearms doubly so.

I do not hunt but I too have been amazed at times with the fervor that certain rounds are discussed!
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Old January 29, 2014, 07:18 PM   #19
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This sounds like conversations when I was a kid......( a long time ago ).....Fords versus Shivys!! Yes that is GM!
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Old January 29, 2014, 10:48 PM   #20
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The latest coolness is using less powerful cartridges and talking about how such and such a small cartridge is perfectly adequate for whatever and the unenlightened masses are using too much.

In the meantime there is not much downside to using the biggest thing you can stand to shoot and hit what you are aiming at. You just won't be cool on internet forums.
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Old January 30, 2014, 12:00 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroJunk
The latest coolness is using less powerful cartridges and talking about how such and such a small cartridge is perfectly adequate for whatever and the unenlightened masses are using too much.

In the meantime there is not much downside to using the biggest thing you can stand to shoot and hit what you are aiming at. You just won't be cool on internet forums.
I don't think it is the latest coolness or fad. We live in the information age that allows us to analyze everything, including the cartridges we shoot. The results of shooting competitions and the cartridges used to win are also guiding this thinking. Bryan Litz and German Salazar have written on why .30 caliber and greater have fallen out of favor in competition shooting. We live in an age where everyone is chasing the sub-MOA group. This mindset makes it tough to justify a .30 caliber or larger gun or a magnum. It is easier to achieve this with a high BC bullet in a low recoil cartridges, which happen to be these "small cartridges".

I wish I could handle high recoil or even .308 recoil, if I could I would run out and buy a CZ in 9.3x62 just because, but I am super happy with my 6.5 Creedmoor because of the ballistics I get with those high BC bullets and the minimum recoil afforded to me by this cartridge.

Last edited by Geo_Erudite; January 30, 2014 at 12:21 AM.
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Old January 30, 2014, 07:33 AM   #22
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Nothing makes my point any better than anything 6.5
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Old January 30, 2014, 09:41 AM   #23
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haha, and yet another thread degrades to 6.5 bashing. scandinavians have used 6.5 swede to hunt elk, roe deer, red deer, fallow deer, bear, and a plethora of other big game species since the early 1900s... but apparently it's the latest and greatest thing to use that's smaller than the common wisdom suggests is necessary to hunt such species. the fact of the matter is that 6.5 to 7mm have the highest ballistic coefficients making them the best suited to long range hunters. I have a hard time believing that a 140gr 6.5 travelling 2800 FPS is inferior for hunting to a 308 147gr travelling 2700fps... your remark is complete bias and offers no value to this conversation except to attempt to get people riled up.
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Old January 30, 2014, 10:13 AM   #24
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So, you are not bashing traditionally accepted cartridges and those who use them and I am bashing the 6.5 ?

The 6.5 is fine. So are most of the rest of them. But, the 6.5 is just the current darling.

BTW, BC doesn't mean anything to 99% of the hunters out there at any range they have any business shooting at anything, including myself.

Last edited by ZeroJunk; January 30, 2014 at 10:20 AM.
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Old January 30, 2014, 10:39 AM   #25
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tahunua001, I can only speak for myself but I don't have double standard on what I use or what I would rec to someone else. Living here in Co we have options reg season cow/bull tag,doe/buck tag deer,doe/buck tag antelope.

What I may use on a cow elk may differ from what I would use on deer tag to antelope tag.

I took my last cow elk tag with 30-06, buck deer tag with 270 and I've never taken elk bull/cow with a 270 and my last bull tag used 30 cal mag. I've never drawn a doe deer/antelope tag and I've never filled big game tag here with 243.


I think the double standard is the poster never taken animal with what he recommends. Just because I've never taken big game animal here with 243 doesn't mean I don't like my Kreiger barrel 243 or Hart barrel 243AI.

I do agree lot of difference in hunting bullets from when I started mid 60's and been good changes for those will to build for them.
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