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Old January 30, 2014, 04:05 PM   #26
Stephanie B
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I walk for exercise when the weather's good. Depending on the time of year, I'm out after dark (flashlight, reflective vest).

So there I was, one night, when I hear growling and the patter of running dog feet. I spun around, clawing for my sidearm. It occurred to me that I was going to have to try to shoot a fast-moving dog at night, using a flashlight to illuminate the dog.

I got the light on the dog just to see it pull up at a dark-metal chain-link fence (which I didn't know was there).

When I got home, I ordered a set of CT grips.
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Old January 30, 2014, 04:55 PM   #27
scottycoyote
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one of my carry guns has it, one doesnt. I think if you have a short barreled carry weapon the laser has more pros than cons. Prob a great percentage of incidents where someone needs to pull out a ccw happen a night. I think i could point and shoot anybody who was relatively close to me but the laser would be a nice backup, could help deter someone, and what if you were in a situation where you needed to take a longer shot in a dark room (a situation that popped into my mind was that movie theater shooting a year or 2 ago, what if youd been there and had tried to engage the guy at a distance) not sure i could have hit him with no sights
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Old January 30, 2014, 06:03 PM   #28
Garycw
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Scotty, it would have been hard to have hit that guy from across theater and do mich damage. He was covered up in Kevlar from head to toe.
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Old January 30, 2014, 08:25 PM   #29
jason_iowa
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I think its a horrible choice.

#1 Its going to look bad to a jury of your "peers" Many of whom don't understand guns and will think it makes you look like a murdering gun nut.

#2 Lasers can make great training tools along with live fire exercises. As far as in defense shootings with proper training it should not be necessary. If you can't draw and point shoot at defense ranges you need more practice not more crap on your gun

Carry a flashlight and while I know its convenient do not attach it to your gun. A flashlight in your pocket is pretty understandable to a jury of your peers. A flashlight on you gun may make you look like a murdering gun nut. PERCEPTION matters more then facts do. I carry a nice bright one that can be its own deterrence.

Again a cheap laser is a great training tool while dry firing to work on trigger control. Other then that its mostly fear marketed to people with more money then experience. Don't fall victim to that kind of marketing.

"Scotty, it would have been hard to have hit that guy from across theater and do mich damage. He was covered up in Kevlar from head to toe. "

This is complete BS he had no bullet resistant gear on. What he had was tacticool black gear. The total cost of which was about 300$ which would not buy you a good Kevlar helmet let alone vest which is about 10x that. I can't believe this misinformation is still floating around
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Old January 30, 2014, 08:28 PM   #30
Snyper
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Quote:
He was covered up in Kevlar from head to toe.
That's according to alarmist media reports
What he really wore was nothing like that at all:

Quote:
Here's a pdf of a receipt for some of the equipment the shooter purchased. One of the items is called the "Blackhawk Urban Assault Vest".
http://minx.cc/?post=331266
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Old January 30, 2014, 08:31 PM   #31
Gaerek
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I think you're over thinking this. Do you have some case precedent of a jury convicting someone because they had a laser or light on their gun? All it would take is a half way decent expert witness to explain that lasers and lights are a very popular and common accessory to defeat that argument. There are plenty of dumb things you can do to affect your perception to the jury but having a laser or light isn't one of them.

There are good arguments not to use a laser, but the jury perception one simply isn't anything to be concerned with.
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Old January 30, 2014, 08:49 PM   #32
jason_iowa
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I think you underestimate peoples prejudice vrs what expert witnesses say. I have not done extensive research on the subject. I have been involved in an arrest on a gun related case and "murdering gun nut" was a quote from a jury member. Its anecdotal evidence yes but the gun was never even fired it was a felon with a weapon possession.

Obviously he was screwed either way as he was a felon and the gun was found in his vehicle.

It would be impossible to prove that the conviction was swung by the presence of a laser but its also impossible to prove that it was not what swung the Jury. I suggest you read some studies on jury psychology. Personally I would not risk it as the perception is quite negative and is completely unnecessary as a defensive tool.
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Old January 30, 2014, 09:02 PM   #33
Gaerek
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By that logic we should stop using evil hollowpoints because we don't want the jury to think we loaded the man killers because we wanted to inflict the most damage possible. Or maybe the jury will think you're a vigilante because you use the same ammo as the cops? Both of those have been solidly debunked if you have a defense attorney with half a brain.

I agree that certain things CAN ( operative word) affect jury perception. It would be stupid to engrave a punisher logo or "Smile Before Flash" on any gun you plan to use for self defense. They serve no purpose and can be easily used to show the type of person you are and there's no easy way to defend putting it on your gun.

But a laser? Maybe in the early 90's when all the movies had the SWAT teams using them. But in today's world, they come built into many guns. They are prolific. Well known and respected gun trainers say they are fine to use. Hell, Tom Greshem says he has a laser on most if his guns and recommends using them. If that's not showing how prolific and common they are to use, I don't know what is.

Just like its easy to defend your choice to use JHP ammo, your choice to use a laser is also easy to defend unless you have Harold Fish's first attorney (convicted basically because he used a 10mm in what should have been a clean self defense shooting...if only he used a 9mm/.40/.45 instead).

Once again, show me where use of a light or laser in the last 10 years (or he'll, ever) has helped lead to a conviction and I'll concede and eat my words. But having a laser on your gun after a shoot will be the least of your worries.
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Old January 30, 2014, 10:11 PM   #34
jason_iowa
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Its a universal negative Gaerek. It would be impossible to prove. I would argue that JHPs are far from necessary. Currently I carry wad cutters in my 44 and 357s as I value penetration over expansion. Although these do expand more then one might think.

Again lots of people are in the business of selling tacticool crap to people who don't know better. If it makes you feel safer have at it. I have made my opinion quite clear.
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Old January 30, 2014, 10:26 PM   #35
ATPBULLETS
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Been shooting 9mm for years and just bought a glock with crimson trace grip laser..(my first laser),,.. I had no idea that I shook that much...lol..great training aid... plus if you have to fire the weapon in a unconventional manner..."not looking down the sight plane"...could be advantage.
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Old January 31, 2014, 12:54 AM   #36
Garycw
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thoughts on laser sight use?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_iowa View Post
I think its a horrible choice.



This is complete BS he had no bullet resistant gear on. What he had was tacticool black gear. The total cost of which was about 300$ which would not buy you a good Kevlar helmet let alone vest which is about 10x that. I can't believe this misinformation is still floating around
I didn't follow the case in depth. Just what was reported. I remember seeing protection material covering even his neck what they called Kevlar.
I have a couple level lll vest with schock plates that were no where near $3000
At least you admit lasers are good training tools.
As far as point & shoot in a up close defense situation, of course you're not going to use sights. If you do, it might be the last thing you see. That's common sense.
Someone pointing a gun at you or someone else beyond 15ft, is different. A laser may be a big help then, or it would be for me.

Last edited by Garycw; January 31, 2014 at 01:00 AM.
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Old January 31, 2014, 04:33 AM   #37
Ben Towe
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I have a laser on my 1911 that rarely gets turned on. I bought it mainly because I really like the grips. I think they have their purposes, such as on small guns that have terrible sights, in training, perhaps even some limited applications on a full size weapon, but I find acquiring my sights (granted they are tritium night sights) is faster than the laser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_iowa
This is complete BS he had no bullet resistant gear on. What he had was tacticool black gear.
Can you support this supposition?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_iowa
The total cost of which was about 300$ which would not buy you a good Kevlar helmet let alone vest which is about 10x that. I can't believe this misinformation is still floating around
Perhaps you should pick up a Galls catalog or hit a decent Army surplus store sometime. You could get a decent armor setup for well under $1000.
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Old January 31, 2014, 09:49 AM   #38
Gaerek
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Well, I sure hope a jury doesn't look at those .44's you shoot and think, "Wow, look at the murdering gun nut using those HUGE boolits!!!" or "What does he think he is, a Dirty Harry wannabe?" After all, everyone knows the 44 Mag is the most powerful handgun ever made and can blow your head clean off. Why else would you shoot a .44 if not to blow someone's head off? And before you say, "Well, I shoot .44 Special!!" you'll have to explain that one to a jury who already believes you chose a nasty mankiller round...because they only hear .44, nothing else.

Seriously, there are many good and bad choices when it comes to your defensive gun. I'd be far more worried about perception as it pertains to ammo choice than your choice of sight. But, you've made your decision. To everyone else in the real world, if the laser helps you win a fight, it'll be easy to defend its use. Ask Harold Fish's second attorney how tough it was to defend his use of a relatively common SD round, however.

Last edited by Gaerek; January 31, 2014 at 10:00 AM.
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Old January 31, 2014, 09:48 PM   #39
ClydeFrog
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Post #29; Massad Ayoob....

I would not go by the remarks in post #29. The member is entitled to their views but I disagree with them fully.
White-lights & tactical lights have been on sidearms for decades.
If you ever saw the action hit; Speed, www.imdb.com you'll see the SWAT cops all using Surefire lights on the 1911a1 .45acp pistols. This was 1994.
Massad Ayoob, a nationally known authority on tactics & lethal force, did a few magazine articles on laser aiming sights & white-lights.
He stresses that you can use these devices on defense guns without being labeled a "gun nut" or "blood-thirsty".
These devices are highly refined in 2014. They aren't perfect for every event or tactic but you'd hardly be viewed as a maniac or mall ninja even by a jury.

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