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Old February 9, 2014, 08:49 AM   #51
Snyper
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So in most close combat situations we're talking very short ranges if you can't draw, point, fire and hit vitals on a man sized target at 21ft with out sights you NEED more range time.
You don't need more range time
You need to learn to use your sights

You're just advocating a "spray and pray" technique
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Old February 9, 2014, 11:33 AM   #52
Deaf Smith
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Actually everyone needs more range time, sights or no sights.

I was at the indoor range yesterday. The guys there always stick me at the far end cause I do alot of drawing and that sometimes scares newbie shooters.

I came in with my carry Glock, swapped for my practice Glock, and used it for the whole thing.

Well next to me was a guy teaching three hot chicks (lucky me) and so I went through my repertory of speed shooting at 10 yards.

Target has 5 black bullseyes, each 4 inches in diameter. 95 percent of my shots from my Glock 26 were all in the bulls, even when transitioning from target to target.

Now the guy had same targets at 3 yards for the girls and all were doing awful, even at that range. So I shamelessly moved my target to 3 yards and hip shot the lower bull. All 9 rounds in the lower bull. I use the lower bull cause if I aim for the high ones the bullets will hit the ceiling and the owners of the range will not be amused.

Yes, no sights used at 3 yards. But then I would do one hip shot then raise to a 2 handed Isosceles and brain shoot the upper bull (with perfect placement at such range WITH MY SIGHTS.) All at speed. All with a Glock 26 with 3.5/NY-1 setup.

And at 7 yards, using just my right, I would draw and snap shoot one of the bulls (flash sight picture). A few landed outside the bulls but not many.

Ok... I have an ego, especially if hot chicks are around but the point is if you practice alot, and practice CORRECTLY, you will be able to shoot all kinds of ways.

But if you don't have that time, but can shot maybe once a month, learn to use sights as they will give you the hits.

If you don't shot but once a year... as apparently the girls at the range didn't, and the guy wasn't much better, then I guess point shooting would be their only option, and not a good one at that.

It's the fundamentals that count. Index and trigger control. And that has to be drilled and drilled to become second nature.

Do the fundamentals right, no fancy stuff, and you will do well. Point shooting is more of a secondary technique learn AFTER you master the fundamentals.

Deaf
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Old February 10, 2014, 03:19 PM   #53
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They will also be silhouetted against your first muzzle flash.
Sure will, but you won't see the second because your poor ears will make your eyes close
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Old February 10, 2014, 05:43 PM   #54
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Use of sights

While I personally believe that sights should always be used if the situation permits, I have interpreted Jason Iowa's comments as not necessarily negating all use of sights in all circumstances, and would not be highly critical of his opinion.
It is not always possible to employ the sights. The NYPD SOP study published in 2010 noted:
"Utilizing a two‐handed grip, standing, and lining up a target using the firearm’s sights is the preferred method of discharging a firearm,
but it is not always practical during an adversarial conflict. Of officers reporting their shooting techniques, 62 percent gripped the firearm with two hands, 59 percent state that they were standing, and 31 percent stated that they were able to utilize the sights on their firearms." The report also noted that in shootings of dangerous animals only 9% used their sights.
Jim Cirillo may have always seen his sights but I'm sure we would all agree that his experiences and skills were very unusual.
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Old February 11, 2014, 04:07 PM   #55
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You don't use the sights in a stressful situation. There isn't much more to say.
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Old February 11, 2014, 05:15 PM   #56
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You don't use the sights in a stressful situation. There isn't much more to say.
In a truly stressful situation, you might not be able to say if the sights were used or not.
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Old February 11, 2014, 06:04 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
You don't use the sights in a stressful situation. There isn't much more to say.

How do you know?
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Old February 11, 2014, 06:53 PM   #58
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Carrier fighter pilots, when under stressful situations, have to do ALOT of focusing on their task at hand and not on where they want to land. They even hooked them up to machines in Vietnam and recorded their stress levels.

The highest level? Landing on the carrier. Combat over Hanoi was not as bad as landing as for stress. And back then, they didn't have all the gizmos they have today to assist (and think about WW2 pilots who just had this guy with two ping-pong paddles for help!)

Like I posted before, in his books Jim Cirollo pointed out he did see his sights.

Many firearms trainers (Cooper, Chuck Taylor, Clint Smith, Tom Givens, John Hearne, Paul Howe, etc..) all have plenty of students that say they saw their sights under self defense situations.

Does that mean everyone sees their sights? No.

Does that mean every situation one can see their sights? No.

But as Jeff Cooper wrote in his field manual (Gunsight manual), "and if you cannot see your sights, bring the gun up as IF you could see your sights".

What he was saying is, produce the same index as you would do if you could see your sights and at close range you still get the hits.

So as I have posted many a time... index and trigger control are the keys. Just how you achieve the index is up to you.

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Old February 11, 2014, 07:54 PM   #59
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You don't use the sights in a stressful situation.
You do if you intend to hit your target
Otherwise you're just hoping to get lucky
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Old February 12, 2014, 09:26 AM   #60
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How do you know?
I've been in a stressful situation. Have you?

The vision shrinks to the size of a nickel. Only looking at the target.
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Old February 12, 2014, 10:16 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantine
Quote:
How do you know?
I've been in a stressful situation. Have you?

The vision shrinks to the size of a nickel. Only looking at the target.
In other words, you didn't see your sights in particular situation which you found stressful.

So when you wrote (in post 55):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantine
You don't use the sights in a stressful situation...
you really meant, and should have written:
Quote:
I didn't use the sights in a stressful situation...
And so, you really didn't have a good basis to generalize. On the other hand, others have written here about using sights in stressful situations. And some may have more training and practice using their sights than you do.
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Old February 12, 2014, 10:21 AM   #62
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And some may have more training and practice using their sights than you do.
Or don't...

Meaning, different kinds of training. One is always a student doesn't know it all. Not even you.


EDIT: They're various people I've shared my experiences with in Miami-Dade S.R.T. that use "point shooting" when in defense situations.

In offensive situations, it's much easier to use sights and keep the intended target(s) in your "Peripheral Vision".

You train in point shooting under stress, you'll use point shooting under stress.

Nothing wrong about that.

People who I've encountered that trained to use their sights in training, didn't under stress.
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Last edited by Constantine; February 12, 2014 at 10:31 AM.
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Old February 12, 2014, 10:42 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Constantine
Meaning, different kinds of training. One is always a student doesn't know it all. Not even you...
Yes, we're always students, but as continuing students we should know better than to make categorical statements based on only our own experiences.

And if you have other support for your opinions, you should lay it out initially, not just when called on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantine
...People who I've encountered that trained to use their sights in training, didn't under stress.
And people I've encountered and trained with, and as also reported by others posting in this thread, have used their sights.
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Old February 12, 2014, 10:43 AM   #64
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Rifleman1776 said
"I would like to hear from people who have actual experience using their handguns in a high stress situation. "
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Old February 12, 2014, 10:45 AM   #65
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Yes, we're always students, but as continuing students we should know better than to make categorical statements based on only our own experiences.
Isn't that what you're doing then by opposing my statement?

Quote:
And people I've encountered and trained with, and as also reported by others posting in this thread, have used their sights.
Okay? I've experienced the opposite. So around and around we go?

Quote:
Rifleman1776 said
"I would like to hear from people who have actual experience using their handguns in a high stress situation. "
Good point Wyo...

Do you fall under that category Frank?
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Old February 12, 2014, 10:58 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantine
Quote:
Yes, we're always students, but as continuing students we should know better than to make categorical statements based on only our own experiences.
Isn't that what you're doing then by opposing my statement?
No, what I was doing was pointing out that your statement in post 55 effectively saying that no one will use sights in a stressful situation is fallacious when just based on your own experience and in light of the use of sights in stressful situations as reported by others in this thread.
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Old February 12, 2014, 11:01 AM   #67
Constantine
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So you can agree with me that it's possible for people to not use their sights as well if that's how they're trained, right?


Also... Just to fill my own curiosity. I want to ask again.

Quote:
Quote:
Rifleman1776 said
"I would like to hear from people who have actual experience using their handguns in a high stress situation. "
Good point Wyo...

Do you fall under that category Frank?
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Old February 12, 2014, 11:10 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Constantine
So you can agree with me that it's possible for people to not use their sights as well if that's how they're trained, right?
Yes, it's possible that people have effectively used their guns under stress without using their sights. It's also possible that people have made a hash of things without using their sights.

And of course, it's possible, with training and practice, to effectively use a flash sight picture under stress.
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Old February 12, 2014, 11:17 AM   #69
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It's also possible that people have made a hash of things without using their sights.
It's also possible that people have made a hash of things even with using their sights too. So what's the point of pointing out people making a "hash" of things one way and not the other if you're neutral?
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Old February 12, 2014, 11:34 AM   #70
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So you can agree with me that it's possible for people to not use their sights as well if that's how they're trained, right?
No, not in every situation.

At very close range, yes, but when the distance is longer or precision is needed, no.

And yes I know there are master competition shots who don't use their sights but that's a master who has practiced for years and hundreds of thousands of rounds.

Crawl before you walk, walk before you run, run before doing flips...

So you learn the basics first, index and trigger control. And the easiest index is sighted fire.

Deaf
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Old February 12, 2014, 11:37 AM   #71
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No, not in every situation.

At very close range, yes, but when the distance is longer or precision is needed, no.
That goes without saying.

Aren't we talking bad breath distance here? Isn't it more "Stressful" at that distance? Where you really can't extended your arms out enough to even use your sights. Even when you can (ie: cover or losing distance) it's difficult.

Apples to oranges is being reached now that we're taking this to long distance. You probably shouldn't be shooting your handgun at long distance anyways.
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Old February 12, 2014, 05:26 PM   #72
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Well, that's not true absolutely. One can dig up examples of necessary long distance shots. For example, the Air Force police guy who took out a shooter with his handgun at a fairly long distance.

It all depends and we should practice using sights and close up retention shooting. Any more to say?
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Old February 12, 2014, 07:03 PM   #73
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Aren't we talking bad breath distance here?
2 yards? 4 yards? Just what is 'bad breath' distance?

If within 3 yards retention or hip shooting is a definite possibility. But then you might also have a head shot needed due to others being in close proximity.

But this is why every 'system' from 'The Modern Technique' on has a form of hip/retention shooting. Yes even Jeff Cooper saw there were times when unsighted fire was needed. But he just felt it was not that often in real life you needed that.

Deaf
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