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Old February 15, 2014, 02:59 PM   #26
manta49
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It looks like compliance rates for the gun and magazine registry in Connecticut are much lower than expected. Given the lack of success for such schemes in Canada, the UK, and Australia, that comes as little surprise. As such, the government is already considering an amnesty and a second chance at registration, less than a month after the original deadline
They have had amnesties for illegal firearms in the UK in the past, but I can't remember amnesties for registering of firearms. ( possibly in the distant past but not that I can remember ) All legal firearms in the UK are registered and put on your firearms certificate, and police database. Not magazines. As for Connecticut it will not work unless the police enforce it, if they have the will to do that is another matter.

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Old February 15, 2014, 04:20 PM   #27
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Ruby Ridge and such...

I suspect if the government started to lay seige (like Ruby Ridge) on those who didn't turn in their guns, for example, because they were suddenly illegal due to having a pistol grip or some other silliness, I doubt that would garner much public support.
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Old February 15, 2014, 05:12 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tom Servo
Before we wax all romantic about the idea of killing people, let's remember that this law was passed legally, by politicians who were elected legally. Resorting to violence because we're not happy of the outcome is not what civilized people do.
Tom, I believe the legality of the law's enactment is the subject of at least one of the lawsuits against it. The CT legislature passed it without running it through the committee process or allowing any public hearings and comment. (Just like the NY SAFE Act.) They did this by invoking some "emergency measure" clause in their rules, but there wasn't any emergency. The law was written in back rooms, and the vote came approximately four MONTHS after the event that triggered it. There was clearly (to any objective reviewer) no valid basis to the "emergency" designation.
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Old February 15, 2014, 09:55 PM   #29
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I suspect if the government started to lay seige (like Ruby Ridge) on those who didn't turn in their guns, for example, because they were suddenly illegal due to having a pistol grip or some other silliness, I doubt that would garner much public support.
It would if they were successful in making the gun owners in question look like knuckle-dragging renegade stooges. Do you have political stickers on your car? Go to any rallies? Post on gun forums? It'll all be twisted to paint a picture, and it'll sell to the public.

What was Randy Weaver's crime? Failure to file a form and pay a $200 tax. And that was just one incidence.

As it is, they don't have to go out and round people up. They just have to bust someone they catch at the range, a gun show, or a traffic stop who's got the wrong hardware. A few such busts will have a chilling effect on everyone.

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There was clearly (to any objective reviewer) no valid basis to the "emergency" designation.
I have to admit, I need to do more research on the parameters and limits of the "emergency" provision. I know the law was passed in haste and without much of a chance for public comment.

If so, that's wrong. Such malfeasance can be addressed in the courts or at the ballot box. Violence is not warranted, and it would only make things so much worse.
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Old February 15, 2014, 10:44 PM   #30
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I wish to say that my opening statement was based on the pretext that it was indeed the gov. that had initiated the initial violence, not the public. Tom, I certainly did not wax romantic about war, as only fools and those who have never experienced it do so. James, you say times have changed, and certainly they have, but human nature has remained stagnant. Once again, I will use an historical perspective to illuminate my statement. If we have attained an enlightenment of any type, it is only in these last few moments of human existence. The past century was the bloodiest in the history of mankind, and more died in that 100 years than all the years before combined, and this present one shows very little sign of slackening. If, as you have posited, we are beyond the desire to do violence to ensure the furthering of our rights, then there are none left to stand up for the ideals of freedom, liberty, and justice. If such is the case, then we justly deserve whatever it is we get.
I would like to change the direction just a little, if allowed. What if the gov. does absolutely nothing? There are now somewhere between 100-200,000 citizens walking around in CT guilty of a Class D felony, punishable by up to 5 years in prison and a $5000 fine. I'd be interested in hearing some possible scenarios.
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Old February 15, 2014, 10:57 PM   #31
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What if the gov. does absolutely nothing?
That's a possibility, and not a remote one. Canada's long gun registry went into effect in 1998. Within a few years, the cost of administering the registry ballooned to over 3000% of the original estimated cost. The registry failed to deter crime, and it wasn't much use as an investigative tool. In 2012, it died with a whimper. Gary Mauser has some excellent commentary here.
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Old February 16, 2014, 06:26 AM   #32
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In a state as left as CT, the courts are ineffective for this, this would have to go to scotus. Likewise are the elections for the most part. That's a reality.
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Old February 16, 2014, 08:41 AM   #33
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Getting back to the subject of the original post (amnesty), I saw an article yesterday (which now I can't find, so no link) indicating that by executive fiat the governor of Connecticut has decided the State Police will accept and process those registrations that were postmarked between January 1 and January 4. Supposedly there was some kind of problem with people having dropped their paperwork in the mail by the December 31 deadline but the USPS didn't postmark it until a later date.

I haven't seen anything beyond that as regards any broader amnesty. And I believe this limited window of "amnesty" only affects a few hundred people.
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Old February 16, 2014, 07:07 PM   #34
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It will be very interesting (possibly scary) to see how the state of CT goes with this. They have at their disposal a VERY detailed database of what we have purchased for many many years. They can easily cross reference current registry with the DP3 forms. This whole deal has forced me to move all of my scary guns out of state.
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Old February 23, 2014, 08:15 AM   #35
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As has already been mentioned, CT has a detailed database of guns purchased thru an FFL for quite a few years. The data is there if/when they wish to use it to cross reference against legally registered (reregistered?) evil guns.

The thought of armed resistance is not only ridiculous but it would do more harm to the cause than anything else. If even one zealot locks himself in his house, screaming Molon Labe, it will affirm what the antis are saying and this would be paramount in any future gun legislation.

The only answer is thru the courts and elections. Vote OUT all the NY Wannabes who voted for this bill. The 2014 and 2016 elections have to become single issue elections to right the ship. We have to show anyone running for office that if they wish to be anti-gun zealots then their chance of election is nil. Every pro-gun voter needs to get out to vote this November. We need 100% turnout. Sitting on our hands will allow those who want to take our guns the courage to continue trying. The time to say "enough" is right now... this year... this election.

We have to have faith in the judicial system and the patience for it to run it's course. Every victory elsewhere in the country will give precedence to lawsuits at hand. Yes, it sucks, but anyone who is caught in the crossfire with an "illegal" evil rifle will pay the price for the others. I doubt they want to be martyrs and just wish to stick it to Big Brother but the choice they made of not registering may end up costing them the freedoms they expect.

If someone wants to be "the" test case then good for them. For those who are thumbing their noses "just because"... well, I hope they don't pay the ultimate price. They may be stubborn enough to resist registration but aren't smart enough to understand the consequences. I wish these people well.
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Old February 23, 2014, 10:42 AM   #36
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I can't imagine anyone I know would register their guns. I don't think I would either. Are the law enforcement folks really going to enforce it? Are they really going to go door to door looking for them?

I hope the folks in Conn stand strong and refuse to comply. I know where I live(a southern state) most of the local law enforcement folks said they would never go gun grabbing, even if it was federal law. The local sheriffs dept here are the ones with the power and they pretty much say they will tell the feds to go pound sand.
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Old February 23, 2014, 11:18 AM   #37
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As a resident of CT, I'm going to play devil's advocate.

The state makes a list of people who were known to purchase an evil rifle but didn't register (reregister?) it. These people are fed into a database somewhere as "suspected" violators of the registration laws. (Yes, these people could have sold their gun, lost it in a boating accident, etc., but their name is on this list.)

So, Gunowner Sam is stopped for running a yellow light. All stops are run thru whatever databases are available and it's found that he MAY have an unregistered AR. The officers are instructed to search the vehicle (probable cause?) for any illegal weapons. They find a mag with 15 rounds in it (never "registered" mag). If Sam didn't register his AR, I doubt he registered his "hi-cap" mags. So, they get a search warrant for his residence (probable cause?) and find his "cache" of "illegal", unregistered "assault weapons" and hundreds of "illegal" "hi-capacity" magazines. They also find a "cache" of ammo totalling over 20K rounds.

So, Gunowner Sam is villified on the local 6:00 news and shown as a "gun nut" who has an "arsenal" of illegal weapons and enough ammo to raid a small country. He is brought up on charges, 1 for each unregistered evil rifle and 1 for each hi-cap mag and faces 200 years in prison. This is plastered all over the media to show the other "resistant" "civil disobedient" felons how it works.

So, Sam is pulled over for running a yellow light and is charged with multiple felonies and faces losing his rights to own as well as all of his assets, to defend himself, and all of his weapons and ammo are seized, all because he wanted to stick it to "the man". Do you think this is hyperbole or is it very possible? No one went door-to-door to confiscate anything. It started with an innocent traffic stop and a database. The govenor wants to send a message.

Think this can't happen?
Really?
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Old February 23, 2014, 12:08 PM   #38
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Larry, that is pretty much how it will happen and those that think their Local LEO and LEO friends will not do exactly what you just described are dreaming.

That said, I think your scenario will not be limited to those that did Not register their firearms and Mags. I fear the same thing will happen to those that did register. The cops may not find the "Illegal" stash you described, but these gun owners may be targeted as "Potential" threats, searched and harassed just the same.

I see it as lose-lose situation for all concerned.
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Old February 23, 2014, 04:45 PM   #39
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Violence is seldom the answer. I definitly foresee a lot of unfortunate boating accidents.

The big problem is, though violence is seldom the answer, what would you do if you KNEW they were going to take your firearms and imprison you? MOLON LABE!!
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Old February 23, 2014, 06:32 PM   #40
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It is truly sad that as americans we are having this conversation. This alone is a sign that they've gone too far. "Lost my guns in a boating accident" Why should I have to lie in order to protect myself from jail against an unjust law??

We all get on here and talk about how great the constitution is and what awesome things our founders did to ensure our God given rights and now the ball is in our court and how were gonna hand our country down to our sons and daughters and all we can say is "just lie about your firearms" or "just vote them out" tell me how well is that working out for us? they keep giving it to us 1 law at a time and have been for years. Now we sit here at this time no longer in a free country and our only option is telling them it fell off a boat?? Is that what we really reduced ourselves too?? Im all for civility and doing things lawfully but im not built to be a slave either.
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Old February 23, 2014, 07:56 PM   #41
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We're not getting into the idea of armed confrontation over this. Several posts have been deleted, and we won't be visiting that line of speculation again.
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Old February 23, 2014, 10:02 PM   #42
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LarryH I think your narrative is precisely how this would play out. While some local LEOs may overlook it they will make someone a test case.
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Old February 23, 2014, 10:08 PM   #43
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Tom- I'm not saying that an armed confrontation is a good idea and apologize if my post sounded like it. maybe its because I was watching braveheart at the time I wrote it I just wanted to point out that we've had the same strategy for years and yet were closer than ever to getting our rights taken from us. some states more than others (i.e Conn). something were doing (or not doing) needs to change, because while were winning SOME battles were losing the war (for lack of a better analogy). Before we know it were going to look up and see that right gone and wonder "what the heck happened"?

"When the government fears the people there is liberty and when the people fear the government there is tyranny" which category do we fall into now days?
Lets ask those living in conn, NY, D.C.? Last year the whole country was dangerously close to losing our right to choose how to defend our families and the only way we defeated that was because gun owners of all kinds were UNITED. we said HECK NO your not taking our rights away! And they knew we meant it. Now there going to do it slowly state by state with registration schemes and magazine bans and smart guns and our best strategy is to just vote them out or the ol' "it fell off a boat" routine. Im just sayin we have to do something different or else were gonna lose and our children are going to pay for it.
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Old February 23, 2014, 11:33 PM   #44
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Before we know it were going to look up and see that right gone and wonder "what the heck happened"?
This isn't happening because somebody took over the government. This is happening because the people implicitly endorsed it through their choices (or lack thereof) at the voting booth. Most of the folks asking how this happened would do well to educate themselves and actually get involved on the civic level.

I dealt with this in 1994. I had more than a few conversations like this:

Joe Bob: What in the heck do you mean I can't get 13-round clips for my Glock?

Me: There's a ban on distribution of new ones to civilians.

Joe Bob: Wha...when did that happen?

Me: About three months ago. Lots of stories in the news about it. If you belong to the NRA, you might have gotten a phone call...

Joe Bob: Yeah, they interrupted [insert name of vapid television series, probably Friends] I hung up on 'em.

Me: Yeah, I got that a lot.

Joe Bob: Well, then why didn't YOU do something to stop it?

Me: I was the guy you hung up on.

Joe Bob: Well, YOU shoulda done ☠☠☠☠☠☠ MORE! This is why I don't give money to [insert 2A organization he never donated to anyway]. Also, ☠☠☠☠☠ to [insert politician Joe Bob saw on CNN last night, probably Ken Starr]. ☠☠☠☠☠! I'm gonna go bury my rifles in a place I'll never find 'em!

And so it goes. There was no secret conspiracy then or now. They wanted it more than we did, and they did the work. That's how politics works.
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Old February 24, 2014, 02:58 AM   #45
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Tom With all due respect most of the people asking how this happened are people who are involved. I myself am one. I vote, I am an NRA member, I give to my local 2A organization, I email my politicians, I go to rallies. Not everyone who is fed up is a "joe bob" who doesn't take time to or resources to defend their rights. This is exactly why we're wondering what the heck happend because we are involved. You are right about the fact that there is no secret conspiracy. There doesn't need to be. it's all done for the most part out in the open.
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Old February 24, 2014, 08:55 AM   #46
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I apologize as well. I wasn't calling for someone to break the law on my advice.
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Old February 24, 2014, 12:08 PM   #47
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I wasn't trying to suggest that armed insurrection was the answer and apologize if my post came across that way, but armed resistance is inevitable even if it's just isolated cases -- like folks defending their homes in a no-knock raid. People (both ordinary citizens and cops) are going to get killed just because of some politicians' egos and power-trip.

They forgot one of the key tenets of leadership: Never issue an order (or law) that you know will be disobeyed.
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Old February 24, 2014, 01:32 PM   #48
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For many gunowners complaining in internet boards is the extent of their involvement in gun rights. A goodly number get all their news from fringe organizations that have been telling us for years how a president will take our guns by executive order or something. While they were wrapped around the axle with far out conspiracy stuff several states passed serious gun control laws.
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Old February 24, 2014, 03:09 PM   #49
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I myself am one. I vote, I am an NRA member, I give to my local 2A organization, I email my politicians, I go to rallies.
While you're doing the work, how many others are? The CCDL has around 6,000 members if I recall correctly. That's a really small minority of actual gun owners in Connecticut.

This law wasn't an event so much as it was the culmination of a process. Many of the legislators who voted for it have been elected and re-elected over the course of years or decades. Had gun owners been pushing them on the issue over that same timeframe, those legislators might have though twice before blindly supporting the measure. In cases like this, 11th hour outrage just isn't enough.
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Old February 24, 2014, 05:01 PM   #50
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I've been away for a few days and I find it very interesting that this conversation is still going rather strong. Some very thoughtful posts here. The big question to ask is what brought us to this point. The answer lies in the fact that we have been poor custodians of our God-given freedoms. Couple that with an outspoken, fact-bending, minority bent on denying us those rights; bouyed by a media oriented more on distributing propaganda rather than the truth, and here we are. Make no mistake about it, what is happening in CT is being watched very carefully by many in high places. I can assure you there are big movers and shakers behind the scene, and the response to the situation there will be carefully chosen. Do not forget that the UN Small Arms Treaty lies waiting for the day when 67 Senators will vote for it.
I find the idea of armed confrontation repugnant, but unfortunately, we may be very near that point; that is, if freedom as we have known it, is to survive. We are at a turning point, balanced on a precarious precipice. We will either become submerged in an Orwellian society, or return to the ideals of the Founding Fathers. I sincerely pray that violence has no part in it, but being the pragmatic optomist that I am, I have my doubts. As Jefferson said, the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. I doubt he spoke those words casually, and he was intimately knowledgeable with the circumstances surrounding them. CT is a bellweather state, as the anti-gun crowd has run headlong into it's first actual civil protest on a large scale. How this plays out is anybody's guess, but the repercussions may hang around for many years to come.
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