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Old January 26, 2014, 08:07 PM   #1
Drummer101
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My little situation

First off I am sorry for any strange formatting\grammer\spelling as my computer is in the shop and I only have my tablet.

I recently moved to Texas (woot) and have an apartment.

As of last week neighbors have moved into the units next to me (I live in a pretty safe boring area of Houston).

As of right now my night stand gun is my cz-82. It works and goes bang every time but ammo selection can be limited.

And with having people move in across the hall and next door I feel a little less comfortable with it.
The walls are thin and I am worried about hurting someone else if Lord forbid I need to use it.

My options as I see them,
Keep the 82 and just keep rolling (I am good enough of a shot to hit center mass but in stress I would not feel as comfortable)
Get a 870 pump most likely with target loads (I have been spoiled by my semi auto and I know of very few ranges that would let me pattern it let alone shoot at targets with anything but slugs)
Ruger mini 14 (I feel most comfortable with a rifle and with modern 223 I hear it can penetrate less than a 9mm)
Something heavy or sharp and pointy

I would just like to bounce some ideas around. I think I would use the rifle the most as there are more places to shoot it where I go most if the time (cant shoot shot, only slugs at this range).

I guess I am wondering, would I be completely crazy to go the the rife route? The shotgun would be used minimally (used to have an 870 and I sold it as it did not really connect with me). Or just keep using the pistol and go with it.


Any thoughts or assistance in helping me think this out would be appreciated.
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Old January 26, 2014, 09:40 PM   #2
chris in va
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This is a very interesting site that shows the effects of penetration with various calibers.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

If you go the 223 route, skip the Ruger and get an AR such as a PSA or S&W Sport. Otherwise a shotgun with 2 3/4" turkey loads will work fine. 18" barrel though.
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Old January 26, 2014, 09:45 PM   #3
Drummer101
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I have used an ar. Not really a fan of the pistol grip. But I guess I could get the 14.5 inch barrel with the massive flash suppressor to make it 16 inches. And for some reason your link is not showing up...
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Old January 26, 2014, 10:25 PM   #4
orionengnr
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If you have been led to believe that your pistol round of choice will penetrate less than an AR or a shotgun, let me implore you to do some more research...
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Old January 26, 2014, 11:23 PM   #5
Jim243
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Drummer101, just relax. If your front door to the apartment is metal, then the complex is following the fire code.

One of the things about new construction is that there has to be a 1 hr fire wall between each apartment, that is the code. If that is the case you have 2 layers of concrete brick (cinder blocks) between apartments. Your 380 will not go through the walls into the next appartments should you have to use it.

No need to purchase another gun, just take two deep breaths a glass of wine and relax, you are fine with what you currently have.

Jim

You can contact the leasing office and ask them the fire rating between apartments, tell then you need the information for your renters insurance.
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Last edited by Jim243; January 26, 2014 at 11:30 PM.
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Old January 26, 2014, 11:26 PM   #6
pax
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I am a big fan of completely filled bookcases. Every home should have lots of books! Not only will it help keep you and your children from becoming ignoramuses, it also provides natural barriers to bullet penetration from one room to the next.

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Old January 27, 2014, 02:34 AM   #7
WeedWacker
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What was it about the pistol grip that bothered you? I used my AR at my first Appleseed shoot and conforming to the traditional stances and holds was not as comfortable nor did it help the instructors checking on my form ("dragging wood" was what confused them the most).

If this is your issue (traditional stance uncomfortable with pistol grip) it's a training issue. The AR having the bore in line with the stock has an advantage over the traditional stocks with the bore above the butt. Get an AR and take a defensive carbine course, it will be a very good experience.
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Old January 27, 2014, 05:40 AM   #8
Theohazard
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Unfortunately, most shotgun and pistol loads will penetrate like heck through multiple walls. Defensive .223 loads will penetrate a LOT less (they'll start to fragment almost immediately) and might only penetrate through one or maybe two walls, but they're still not a sure thing. Here's the results of a drywall penetration test of various calibers:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

As you can see, 00 buck and the various handgun loads blew through all three walls. Most of the defensive .223 loads fragmented after the first wall and never made it to the third, indicating that they might not be very lethal after hitting he first wall.

But I would NEVER bank on that happening every time: Just because a .223 usually won't go through two walls, that doesn't mean you can count on that happening every time. The best way to limit over-penetration is to either have all your walls lined with books like Kathy suggested, or make sure you hit your target and you know what lies behind it.
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Old January 27, 2014, 06:43 AM   #9
Mobuck
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"But I guess I could get the 14.5 inch barrel with the massive flash suppressor to make it 16 inches"
WHY? Rifle barrel has to be 16"(+) but why intentionally take a short barrel and add to it to make it legal?
If you're worried about wall penetration, I'd suggest a shotgun with birdshot. My experience is that, at across the room distances, #6-#8 shot will deter most any attack. Regardless of what some have said, I've seen what an ounce of shot will do to flesh at 8-10'. Even w/o any penetration, the effect is like being hit full force with a sledge hammer. Aimed at the face or groin(where no one wants to get shot by anything), the deterrent is significant.
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Old January 27, 2014, 09:50 AM   #10
2ndsojourn
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From Jim243:
"One of the things about new construction is that there has to be a 1 hr fire wall between each apartment, that is the code. If that is the case you have 2 layers of concrete brick (cinder blocks) between apartments. Your 380 will not go through the walls into the next appartments should you have to use it."

Jim, that's not entirely true. Most will agree that a fire separation is required between apartments, but there are dozens of UL rated wall assemblies that will meet the 1 hr rating, and two layers of Type X drywall with 3 5/8" studs is one of them. Most handguns will easily penetrate that.

Drummer, like orion said above, do your research. You're responsible for where your bullets go.
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Old January 27, 2014, 10:18 AM   #11
kraigwy
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Skip the rifle and shot gun and stick with your pistol.

Find some HP or SP bullets that WORK in you gun. They find some blazer or other type low cost ammo and shoot it until you are totally confident in your pistol and your handling your pistol, both left and right handed.

Measure the farthest point in your apartment that you would ever have to shoot. Then using that range practice until you cant miss.

Learn to use the gun one handed, saving the other hand for flashlights, phone to LE, etc.

I carried both rifle and shotgun in my car. In my 20 years in LE I found the best place for them was in my car when inside buildings when doing building searches 'n such.

Also can probably count on one hand the number of times I had both hands free during building searches or other times I had to display my service revolver.

I get this question all the time in my firearm SD classes. Before I give my opinion during these classes I provide rifles and shotguns so the students can determine them selves which is better in confined homes and apartments. Haven't found one yet that chose the long gun over the handgun in such situations.
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Old January 27, 2014, 10:22 AM   #12
Hiker 1
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Drummer, I'll chime in from a different POV.

If you have a home invasion in an apartment, the BG's are going to be up in your grill very quickly. Snatching a pistol off of a night stand to defend yourself makes more sense to me than trying to deploy a 2-handed weapon.

Glaser Safety Slugs have a good reputation for immediate energy dispersal for exactly the situation you describe.

Also, good on you for thinking of your neighbors!
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Old January 27, 2014, 11:58 AM   #13
peacefulgary
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Don't bother with the long guns, your pistol is fine for self defense.

Keep your pistol on you at all times...
When you're getting your mail, when you're walking your dog, when you're walking to and from your car or truck, when you're using the bathroom, when you're answering the door bell, when you're cooking dinner, when you're sitting on your patio or balcony, etc...

Long guns are great, but the long gun is not going to be close at hand when you really need it.
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Old January 27, 2014, 07:11 PM   #14
Drummer101
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Here I was hoping someone would help me justify a mini 14

I kind of know I am splitting hairs but I am also thinking my fiance prefers the cz over a rifle so it could be hers and I would need something lol.

I think I am going to get a mini 14 anyway... If anyone sees one with a wood stock for less than 800 let me know. Kind of matches my 10/22.

The comment about the ar being 14.5 is because I see alot of them with a 1.5 inch flash suppressor... And I do not find the ar controls to my liking\preference.
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Old January 27, 2014, 07:32 PM   #15
shaunpain
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I think you'll be just fine with that CZ, and you certainly don't need any reason to buy a rifle other than you want it! I have an AR and a mini 14 in my cabinet and I much prefer the AR. It is probably the most ergonomic rifle design I'm aware of and there is little room for improvement. To be completely honest with you, though, I prefer a shotgun for close work and the only gun I keep loaded at all times is my Mossberg pump. While I've heard of all the wonderful loads for defensive purposes, I only load it with 00 buck in a 2 and 3/4 inch. Bird shot is for birds and slugs are for doors and deer.
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Old January 27, 2014, 07:48 PM   #16
Theohazard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummer101
The comment about the ar being 14.5 is because I see alot of them with a 1.5 inch flash suppressor... And I do not find the ar controls to my liking\preference.
You would need to pin and weld the flash suppressor to the 14.5" barrel, otherwise it's an SBR.
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Old January 27, 2014, 08:35 PM   #17
Willie Lowman
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Drummer101, get the Mini14. They are great rifles. Just be aware of their limitations. They aren't known for great accuracy. If you aren't planning on doing any long range shooting, don't worry about it!


As far as the over penetration issue goes; any gun that is powerful enough to consider using as a HD gun will shoot through more walls than any of us would like.

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I could have sworn you had an AK-74. I must be mistaking your screen name for someone else's.
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Last edited by Willie Lowman; January 27, 2014 at 08:46 PM.
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Old January 27, 2014, 09:12 PM   #18
Dragline45
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A friend of mine had a negligent discharge with a .380 in his home. It went through his flat screen computer monitor, through the wall, out the other wall, and hit the floor and left a tiny little nick in it where it stopped. After going through a couple layers of dry wall and the monitor it didn't seem like it would have enough momentum to still be lethal, but don't take my word for it as I have not done testing personally.

I wouldn't be too concerned, but if you want to go with a shotgun look into #4 buckshot. When I lived in an apartment complex that is what I kept my shotgun loaded with.

Last edited by Dragline45; January 28, 2014 at 03:40 PM.
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Old January 27, 2014, 09:14 PM   #19
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Nothing wrong with the Mini-14. I keep mine available as my HD gun, moves very easy through tight hallways with the folded paratrooper stock and a long sling over one shoulder, leaves left hand open for using doorknobs, light switches, etc.

But keep the cz-82 for those laying-in-bed-need-a-handgun moments.
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Old January 27, 2014, 09:19 PM   #20
DannyB1954
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Rifles have much more penetration power than hand guns. Another option is a shotgun. You can load them with bird shot and be pretty sure it will not go through walls. If you think bird shot is lame, shoot a 2 X 4 with one at close range. It might change your mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gGCedWUkk8

here is a ballistics gel test through a piece of leather boot material http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zhW9E3PDUk

The Taurus Judge or S&W Governor can be used as well, but the pellet spread is pretty quick, so ove say 9 feet, it would be better to load with buckshot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPGkf-7j8XA

Youtube search bird shot defense for many more.

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Old January 27, 2014, 11:53 PM   #21
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OK, can we please stop calling the CZ-82 a 380? It's a 9x18, or 9mm Makarov. It's not the same round as a 380 (9x17, 9mm Short, or 9mm Kurz), just like it's not the same round as a 9mm. [/rant]

OP, I have a similar situation. I live in a rented townhouse with neighbors on both sides. I also feel your pain at trying to find quality 9mm Makarov defense ammo locally, and am getting ready to bite the bullet (te he) and order some online.

For me, I believe in a layered HD firearm selection. I keep handguns close at night, but I also have a long gun behind the bed (at one time a 10/22 loaded with CCI Stingers) and a 12 guage in the closet, with shells close by. The shotgun is a family gun, otherwise my HD shotgun would be a Rem 870 youth model 20 guage that I had for a while. Right now, my "behind the bed" gun is a 9mm Carbine. Whatever you use, don't consider it an "either-or" question. Have both handy, because the need to check something in your apartment may warrant using the CZ, while barricading yourself in your bedroom may warrant a long gun.
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Old January 28, 2014, 11:07 AM   #22
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Just get some really damn good hollow points and train where to put them adequately.


lol @ Jimmy. +1
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Old January 28, 2014, 01:55 PM   #23
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That's a situation in which I could almost be talked into a revolver with Magsafes or Glasers.
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Old January 28, 2014, 02:14 PM   #24
lcpiper
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Quote:
Drummer101, get the Mini14. They are great rifles. Just be aware of their limitations. They aren't known for great accuracy. If you aren't planning on doing any long range shooting, don't worry about it!
To help qualify this some, I had no problem taking a deer with a Mini-14 at about 80 yards prone with iron sights. It was an easy shot.

That said, she's really only good to 300-500 yards max depending on the size of your target, the rifle, and your skill. There is room for play in these numbers.
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Old January 28, 2014, 03:48 PM   #25
Dragline45
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Quote:
OK, can we please stop calling the CZ-82 a 380? It's a 9x18, or 9mm Makarov. It's not the same round as a 380 (9x17, 9mm Short, or 9mm Kurz), just like it's not the same round as a 9mm. [/rant]
While I was confusing the CZ-82 with the CZ-83, ballistically they are so damn close that they are going to perform the same. They shoot the same size bullet (unless you want to nitpick about .355 vs .364), with the same weight, with the 9x18 having about a 50-75fps difference on average. Using comparisons of the .380 for the 9mm makarov isn't totally out of line.

Last edited by Dragline45; January 28, 2014 at 03:57 PM.
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