The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 21, 2014, 12:42 AM   #1
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
New lethal force event; EDWs....

In Westmoreland County(PA), a PA state trooper deployed lethal force against a violent subject who slashed a female victim in a heated domestic dispute.
The LE officers(from a few different agencies) who answered the call used a few Tasers(EDWs) but the prongs did not work properly.
The male was wearing a thick leather jacket which prevented the Tasers from working in the critical incident.
The subject reportedly lunged at the uniformed officers & was shot several times.

The details are on the WTAE-TV news report.
As noted in the recent TFL post(s), not all EDWs can or will work against violent subjects. These police officers & state troopers followed policy & sadly, they still had to fire on the armed subject.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 06:38 AM   #2
DT Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 4, 2001
Posts: 651
I'm always amazed when folks start talking about how Tasers (and earlier, pepper sprays) will 'always' work. (And I've been Tased once, sprayed many times.)

Hell, even a .45 doesn't 'always' work....



Larry
__________________
He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast.

Government, Anarchy and Chaos
DT Guy is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 11:43 AM   #3
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,279
Just another illustration of why standard police procedure is to use less lethal munitions/devices in a critical incident only when lethal force back-up is immediately available.
__________________
Formerly known as fiddletown
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 01:31 PM   #4
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Details....

By the WTAE news account, www.wtae.com , the violent subject was hit with approx 11/eleven Taser probes.
Only 2 probes went through the garments & made contact with his body.

It wasn't stated which Taser format the LE officers & troopers used.
My city(PD with approx 900 sworn personnel) went with the X26 Taser.
I like Taser's newer X2 version. The X3 model seemed to big & bulky.
Taser cut the X3 I think.
A few smaller PDs & sheriffs quit using the Taser systems entirely.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 06:00 PM   #5
Bezoar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2004
Location: michigan
Posts: 414
hmmmmm even the ol 38 special lrn load went through jackets...
Bezoar is offline  
Old January 21, 2014, 06:59 PM   #6
LockedBreech
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,846
While a very tragic event, this is a very well-timed post in light of the recent posts arguing an officer should have used a Taser rather than a firearm. Real life isn't clean, and officers shouldn't have to bet their lives on a one-shot maybe.

My brother is a police officer, and last month they had three consecutive Taser failures because of a tough jacket. The only thing that stopped the guy getting hurt was that there were enough officers that showed up as backup to overcome him, and that he wasn't armed with anything.
__________________
Beretta PX4 .40 S&W - Beretta 92FS 9x19 Para - Rock Island Armory GI 1911 .45 ACP - Colt 1968 Detective Special .38 Spc. - Ruger LCP .380 ACP - Daniel Defense M4V1 Carbine 5.56x45 - Alpine Industries M1 Carbine .30 - Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 8x56 - Ruger 10/22 .22LR - Remington 870 Express Tactical 12GA - 1943 Izhevsk Mosin-Nagant M91/30 7.62x54R
LockedBreech is offline  
Old January 22, 2014, 06:58 AM   #7
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,134
LockedBreech wrote;
Quote:
this is a very well-timed post in light of the recent posts arguing an officer should have used a Taser rather than a firearm.
These were two vastly different situations. That is all.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old January 22, 2014, 07:41 AM   #8
teeroux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,488
Knife wielding subject advancing on police vs. knife wielding subject advancing on police. Worlds apart.
teeroux is offline  
Old January 22, 2014, 10:58 PM   #9
LockedBreech
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,846
Quote:
These were two vastly different situations. That is all.
As the previous poster noted, the situations had a considerable number of similarities, including the weapon selected by the perpetrator, the domestic setting, the hostile armed approach toward an armed officer, and questionable utility of less-lethal force in the situation, just to name a few.. Different? Of course. Vastly? Hardly.
__________________
Beretta PX4 .40 S&W - Beretta 92FS 9x19 Para - Rock Island Armory GI 1911 .45 ACP - Colt 1968 Detective Special .38 Spc. - Ruger LCP .380 ACP - Daniel Defense M4V1 Carbine 5.56x45 - Alpine Industries M1 Carbine .30 - Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 8x56 - Ruger 10/22 .22LR - Remington 870 Express Tactical 12GA - 1943 Izhevsk Mosin-Nagant M91/30 7.62x54R
LockedBreech is offline  
Old January 22, 2014, 11:35 PM   #10
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,134
Really ?

To borrow a quote from Double Naught Spy;

Quote:
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 12:15 AM   #11
LockedBreech
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,846
Any counterpoints to offer, or just a quote?
__________________
Beretta PX4 .40 S&W - Beretta 92FS 9x19 Para - Rock Island Armory GI 1911 .45 ACP - Colt 1968 Detective Special .38 Spc. - Ruger LCP .380 ACP - Daniel Defense M4V1 Carbine 5.56x45 - Alpine Industries M1 Carbine .30 - Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 8x56 - Ruger 10/22 .22LR - Remington 870 Express Tactical 12GA - 1943 Izhevsk Mosin-Nagant M91/30 7.62x54R
LockedBreech is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 12:42 AM   #12
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,671
We (the US Border Patrol) tested Tasers through Kevlar body armor and they worked, I have a hard time believing that a leather jacket would stop them from working. Who knows.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 01:00 AM   #13
LockedBreech
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,846
For what it's worth, the jacket that stopped the tasers in my brother's department (the standard yellow X26 taser) was a heavy brown Carhartt winter coat. I guess they pierced the tough outer shell, but it was puffy enough inside that the barbs weren't long enough to go into his flesh. So, a lot like smaller handgun rounds, it wasn't an issue of piercing the barrier, but of obtaining enough penetration afterward.
__________________
Beretta PX4 .40 S&W - Beretta 92FS 9x19 Para - Rock Island Armory GI 1911 .45 ACP - Colt 1968 Detective Special .38 Spc. - Ruger LCP .380 ACP - Daniel Defense M4V1 Carbine 5.56x45 - Alpine Industries M1 Carbine .30 - Steyr-Mannlicher M1895 8x56 - Ruger 10/22 .22LR - Remington 870 Express Tactical 12GA - 1943 Izhevsk Mosin-Nagant M91/30 7.62x54R
LockedBreech is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 01:13 AM   #14
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Details....

WTAE.com has the entire media report.
11 probes is a lot. 2 making contact with the subject isn't good.
A thick leather or material could deflect a EDW.

One Taser fail incident I bring up on forums often is the police officer in Daytona Beach Fl who shot a subject in the upper chest. The probes struck a cheap lighter in the subject's shirt pocket & burst into flames!
This event was in the early 2000s.

Non lethal weapons like OC spray, EDWs, etc can't be expected to work 100% of the time.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 07:00 AM   #15
MikeNice81
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2010
Posts: 579
Quote:
We (the US Border Patrol) tested Tasers through Kevlar body armor and they worked, I have a hard time believing that a leather jacket would stop them from working. Who knows.
I've seen a Taser fail when the guy was wearing a down jacket over a sweatshirt and t-shirt. So, leather isn't a stretch to me. One of the things I've heard preached over and over is that Tasers don't always work against heavy winter clothing.

Then again, I've seen a guy with no shirt on get hit by a Taser and pull the probes out. Nothing works every time or on everybody.
__________________
Here's my credo: There are no good guns, There are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people.
Charlton Heston
MikeNice81 is offline  
Old January 23, 2014, 12:59 PM   #16
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Tasers/EDWs....

I'm not Taser or EDW certified, www.Taser.com , but Id read & heard from a few sources that the standard doctrine by most cadre is to fire the Taser & then get ready to fire again/use the electric tips to control the subject(s) immediately.
I wouldn't think any aggressive or intoxicated subject would become compliant or docile immediately after being hit with a non-lethal weapon.
Many savvy ex-cons know too that they can thrash around, claim "self defense" or "excessive force" then file a bogus civil action.

FWIW, another patrol deputy had a lethal force incident in my area. The subject was unstable & reportedly cut himself and a family member before being shot by LE. This was in a middle class neighborhood of a rural area.
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old January 24, 2014, 06:46 PM   #17
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 1,671
The probes do NOT need to pierce the skin (it works better but...). The location of the probes is more critical. Yes Clyde a drive stun is always an option and can be used in leu of a bad hit by a probe. I am taser certified.
__________________
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10404 seconds with 7 queries