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Old January 25, 2014, 12:48 AM   #26
5whiskey
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5 whiskey, what commercially available .30-06 rifle will shoot sub MOA at long range, i.e., 600 to 1000 yards? By sub MOA, I mean at the worst, not just an average number.
Bart, I had a Savage 110 that I paid 330 bucks for that would chuck -06 rounds into 2 inch AVERAGE groups at 300 yards. I'm not saying there was never a group over 3 inches (though I honestly don't remember one), thus killing the sub-moa "perfection," but that was not the norm. If someone wants to "get into shooting" at 500 to 1000 yards, I think an average of slightly under 1 moa is adequate for them to cut their teeth on. Hence, why I suggested that the OP not sweat the caliber so hard. I take it he's not previously been into long range or bench shooting, and is not currently competing. If that is the case, I think he would do better saving $200 bucks and having the rifle in -06 and applying that money to practice rounds downrange. Not everyone that posts here is a bench shooter, or even someone currently capable of doing their part if handed a sub-moa rifle.

I think there are other factors that the OP should weigh that might be way more important than the inherent accuracy of the round... to include rifle weight if he's going to be hunting with it in the highlands, rifle length if he's trudging through heavy brush, length of bolt pull, his ability to handle recoil, and a plethora of other things. .308 wins in most of those categories, which is why I would suggest that if price wasn't an issue. If price is an issue, and he hasn't pulled the trigger very often in the past, then honestly I think he would do better with whatever he can put the most rounds downrange with for the least amount of money (that is still a "competent" rifle).

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Old January 25, 2014, 10:06 AM   #27
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5whiskey, the more accurate a rifle is at long range, the quicker one will learn the skills and knowledge to shoot well that far away from the target. Otherwise, they won't know if the errors they see were caused by the rifle or ammo or it was their error. And they'll save a lot of money if they start out with a .308 instead of having to replace a lot of stuff later just to switch from .30-06 to .308.

And average group size is typically 1/4 to 1/2 the size of the biggest one shot in the series; the more groups shot the greater the difference. The 600 yard test target for the 1965 .30-06 National Match ammo had an average group size of 3.8 inches; mean radius of 1.9 inches. But it took a circle 11 inches in diameter to encompass all 270 shots fired in a barreled M1903A3 barred action from a Mann rest. That ammo shot about 30 inches at 1000 yards from the most accurate match quality Garands. The 1000-yard target's high scoring ring was 36 inches back then. Today, it's only 20.
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Old January 25, 2014, 12:03 PM   #28
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You should also state how many shots are in the group.

I have shot a lot of sub 1 MOA 3 shot groups with a hunting rifle, then tried 5 and it would open up to 1.5 or 2 inches.

My take is that 3 shot groups are fine for hunting and anything 1.5 inches or less is good (my 7mm on its best day shot 1.5 inches and upwards of 2 inches normally).

Target shooting I believe 5 shots are the minimum. And you don't throw out flyers unless you know you jerked it (and then you shoot 6th shot to prove it!)

I have seen write ups that they wold not tell you how many shots in a group though you sometimes could find out by diligent reading of the article.

If they are going to claim sub MOA then it better be 5 shot groups or clearly stated it was 3 shots and its a hunting rifle accuracy level.
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Old January 25, 2014, 05:11 PM   #29
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The size of a 20-shot group has about an 80% chance of representing where all shots will go. 30 shot ones are 90% or so what they'll all do. 5-shot ones, about 50%.

Check out the IBS and NBRSA benchrest sites then look at their records pages. Note the aggregate group records for at least 5 group agg's remembering some groups are much larger than the agg record states. Ranges 200 yards and greater use MOA values so they're easily comparable to those at 100 yards. Those agg averages are a lot bigger than 5-shot single group ones.
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Old January 27, 2014, 02:13 PM   #30
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RC20, IN BR NBRSA/IBS short yardage 100,200 and 300yds, the 200yd and 300 yds is converted to MOA but it's in inches and reason for that. You may have same shooter in the Sporter,Light,Heavy and Unlimited division. In each division you could win these way also

Grand agg 5 shots-5 targets @ 100yd & 200yd each div

Grand agg 5 shots-5 targets @ 200yd & 300yd each div

Grand agg 5 shots-5 targets @ 100yd,200yd and 300yd each div

Grand Agg for these Unlimited are little different from above

5 targets- 10 shots @ 100yd & 200yd

8 targets- 10 shots @ 100yd & 200yd

5 targets- 5 shots @ 200yd & 300yd

5 targets-10 shots @ 100yd,200yd and 300yd.

They convert to .00000" it's a good system and most will shoot more than one division myself I shot light/heavy and I could also shoot either rifle in Unlimited.

Also above matches your not shooting 308or 30-06.
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Old January 27, 2014, 11:48 PM   #31
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This question comes up a lot.
In response I've been trying to direct people to this article

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/09/1...-hunting-bill/

Read it and you'll read about the short comings of the 308.
Personally I think the 308 is fine for most game up to 400 yards.

Download the ballistics calculator that Federal has and you'll see that the
308 is down to about 1800 fps and 1500 lbs/f energy which is about minimum
it needed for a reliable expansion of most rifle rounds.

What I like about the 308 vs 30-06 is the slightly milder recoil of the and
308 and what I like about the 30-06 is the amazing selection of bullets and
if you do your job it gives a quick kill for 99% of game in N-America.

Ideally just get both.
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Old January 27, 2014, 11:55 PM   #32
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"Why isn't the .06 more popular for long-range shooting?
It's less consistent (because the case is the same dia., but longer) in pressure and velocity... not a lot, but enough to make a difference in precision shooting."


This has not been my experience. I've not noticed any difference in accuracy between the two.
I happen to have the same rifle in both calibers and they shoot the same.
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Old January 27, 2014, 11:59 PM   #33
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"Personally I think a 30-06 with a match grade barrel (non M1) would do the same as a 308 but out further (if you loaded it up)
With the progressive powders you can get 300 WM capability.
I don't buy there is something inherent better about a 308 vs an 06."


Bingo!!!
This is exactly what I have experienced and like I said above I have the same rifle in both calibers.
I don't buy the 308 is more accurate argument at all.
I will however say deer, boar, elk, moose and many others all seem to drop down
significantly faster with the 30-06.
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Old January 28, 2014, 07:47 AM   #34
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What???? Dropping significantly faster? That doesn't add up at all. Unless the bullets were significantly different between calibers, there is nothing even tangibly different in killing power.


Quote:
I will however say deer, boar, elk, moose and many others all seem to drop down
significantly faster with the 30-06.
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Old January 28, 2014, 08:26 AM   #35
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The discussion/argument/whatever of .308 vs .30-06 has always bugged me. I know there are those who like each in its own right. But get a talk going about .223 vs .22-250, and most want the .22-250 for the added power/range. This to kill a "dog" that often weighs less than 40#... If we are so concerned about an ethical kill on a predator, why would a whitetail/mulie/pronghorn/whatever deserve any less consideration. I don't dispute the .308's ability, but between it and the '06, I'll take the '06 any day.
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Old January 28, 2014, 10:57 AM   #36
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When you shoot in a match that only 308 is allowed for what 30yrs it's pretty simple to say 308 is the most accurate.

I could see NRA going to the 308 for those matches since other countries have a say on what's being used. When the 30-06 was dropped if it was only for accuracy why didn't the retest the classification system given using the 30-06. Same when they changed target size.

NRA is a score shoot also classification system but it's not perfect in that once you get to High Master you never have to shoot to that level again. Maybe that's one reason they never retested.

Besides winning they give classification awards

http://competitions.nra.org/document...f/cp500-13.pdf
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Old January 28, 2014, 11:03 AM   #37
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"What???? Dropping significantly faster? That doesn't add up at all. Unless the bullets were significantly different between calibers, there is nothing even tangibly different in killing power."


Why don't you download the Federal ballistics calculator and you'll see what I mean if you don't believe me.
I knew I shouldn't have gotten involved in this conversation.

http://www.federalpremium.com/produc...istic_app.aspx

In either case Yes, what I've noticed over the years is that animals seem to drop faster with the 30-06 than a 308. Could all be just a coincidence but it seems to be a pretty definite pattern.
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Old January 28, 2014, 12:22 PM   #38
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I have been looking at buying a new Howa Game king scoped package from Rural King, but the suckers can't order me a .308. I was wondering if the 30-06 version that every Rural king I have called has in stock for $450 would be a good compromise.
In complying with the OP's question and not staying focused._

Simply said:
Some fellows prefer a Long action pull others prefer a Short action pull. But the velocity of the 30-06 does have an edge over the 308 in a bolt rifle. Not much of an edge but 200 fps on average is still a edge. If you were intending to buy a Semi-Auto rifle I would suggest purchasing the 308 for that application. Under this circumstance and the shooting distance you have in mind. Either cartridge would do reasonably well.
FWIW: Here's my suggestion. Buy the rifle in the caliber you really want. Don't settle for less or for another caliber because of its availability. Consider asking Rural King's store manager or assistant manager or whom ever handles the gun counter to special order your rifle {if its possible.} It may require a down payment from you for them to accommodate your request. But you will eventually get the rifle you want. Best of luck to you and your new rifle purchase.

After re-reading this thread. I see Rural King can't special order a rifle for you. Found in that situation perhaps you need to call around and see who does have that rifle package in the caliber you want. Prices between the store may differ a little. But you would be getting the rifle you want even having to purchase it some where's else.
(I think the problem your Rural King store may be having is the rifle offering in its scope package may not be available from his distributor any longer.)

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Old January 28, 2014, 12:39 PM   #39
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Buy the rifle in the caliber you really want. Don't settle for less or for another caliber because of its availability.
This is so true. You will spend more in the long run trying to justify a "good enough" purchase. Buying the caliber in the rifle you want will be more satisfying and you wont wonder about what might have been. Even saving up longer is the way to go.
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Old January 28, 2014, 01:44 PM   #40
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Quote:
Some fellows prefer a Long action pull others prefer a Short action pull.
Long action tends to be smoother than short. Not always just tends that way.



Quote:
But the velocity of the 30-06 does have an edge over the 308 in a bolt rifle. Not much of an edge but 200 fps on average is still a edge.
Actually 200 fps is a huge difference.
If you know your kinetic energy formula (1/2 mv^2) you can see that velocity is squared.
So 200 fps delivers considerably more kinetic energy.

Remember one of the reasons the military went from 30-06 was because to a certain extent it was it was an over-kill ON HUMANS!

So you go from something being an over-kill on humans to being perfect on mid to large size game.
Add to that the intense amount of bullet selections and before you know it you'll be shopping for a 30-06.
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Old January 28, 2014, 03:15 PM   #41
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I am not seeing a 200fps different with Hornady Superformance 165 SST.
30-06 is 1997fps and the 308 is 1902fps at 500 yards.

165 -168 grain is about the best BC you can get for this caliber. Since both the 308 and 30-06 are more than capable hunting rounds, I stretched their range out to 500yards to where there difference in velocities might make any difference.

At 500 yards the difference is 95ft per second.. Both calibers are capable of killing a elk at that range. Show me what range both of these calibers have to shoot for 95fps to make any killing difference?? The farther past 500yards you go the closer their velocities get.
I am not cherry picking my ballistics either. These both are the fastest velocities you can get with both calibers. 95fps is splitting hairs to say the least. Factor in modern hunting bullets and its a waisted comparison.

The killing power difference is so close and such a non factor it would be like dropping a 1/2 ton pickup 15 feet or 17 feet on top of you. Your extremely dead regardless.
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Old January 28, 2014, 04:43 PM   #42
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Interesting observations...
Quote:
When you shoot in a match that only 308 is allowed for what 30 yrs it's pretty simple to say 308 is the most accurate.
That’s only happened in the USA since the late 1990's when the NRA changed the rules for what a Palma rifle had to be chambered for. Prior to that, either the .30-06 or .308 Win could be used. That was the original rule (I wrote it in 1989 for the NRA) so folks shooting their M1903's, M1917's and M1's or any other rifle with .30-06 chambers could compete without having to get a new barrel or rifle. But the NRA High Power Rifle Committee wanted more folks to shoot .308's as that’s the only round allowed by International Palma Competitions.

Until the middle 1970's, the cartridge requirement for NRA match rifles was it had to be 30 caliber and for special matches allowing any caliber, they had to be no larger than 8mm.

Quote:
I could see NRA going to the 308 for those matches since other countries have a say on what's being used.
Explained above, but here’s more details. The USA has only one member on the International Palma Committee. All the others feel its best to have everyone shoot the same ammo to “level the playing field.” No handloads allowed as that would give some an advantage that’s not equal acoss all competitors. As the present cartridge is the NATO standard, that’s what they want to use from local arsenals and that’s what they vote for making the rules.

Quote:
When the 30-06 was dropped if it was only for accuracy why didn't the retest the classification system given using the 30-06. Same when they changed target size.
.30-06 cartridges were never dropped by the NRA as a legal cartridge except for what Palma rifles had to be chambered for (see above). The classification system had to be the same because the rules allowed any 30 caliber cartridge. And both were used in the same match, same division and same category all on the range at the same time. Target scoring ring sizes for high power matches were changed for 200 to 600 yard targets in 1966 and 800 to 1000 ones in 1972. That was done because of the high numbers of unbreakable ties shot by folks using more accurate cartridges and having to follow NRA rules to break ties. ‘Twas caused by .308's being used all the way to 1000 yards (mainly service and Palma rifles past 600) and shorter 30 caliber magnums in “any rifle” divisions for long range matches. But that didn’t prevent some folks using .30-06's and .300 H&H’s trying to outscore .308's and. 30-.338's or .300 Win Mag’s; they never succeeded overall but on rare occasions they did win.

The .30-06 was never dropped by the NRA High Power Committee for match rifles. The NRA rule for decades had been the NRA match rifle had to be 30 caliber; no specific case shooting 30 caliber bullets was stated. Someone could have used a .300 Savage, .30-.30 Win. Or even the .30 Carbine at all stages through 600 yards. Someone decided to shoot a .308 Win. in 1963 and won that year’s Nationals. Others with his skills tried both .308 and .30-06 cartridges in equal quality rifles; the .308 shot more accurate. A few years later, the 5.56 NATO round was allowed in service rifles for that division. Soon thereafter, any caliber under 8mm was allowed; including the .30-06. The .30-06 fell out of favor as it was easier to get more accuracy using the .308 Win. and smaller caliber cases as soon as good bullets were available for them.

Quote:
NRA is a score shoot also classification system but it's not perfect in that once you get to High Master you never have to shoot to that level again. Maybe that's one reason they never retested.
A common belief, but not so. Once you’re assigned an NRA classification, you have to shoot at least the scores that got your that classification else you dropped to a lower one. If you don’t shoot at all for several years, you get to start over again at the bottom. New shooters typically start as “unclassified masters.

Quote:
Besides winning they give classification awards
And sometimes a lower classified shooter gets an award for shooting a lower score than a higher classified one shot and didn’t get an award.

On another thought:

Quote:
But the velocity of the 30-06 does have an edge over the 308 in a bolt rifle. Not much of an edge but 200 fps on average is still a edge.
If one compares muzzle velocity between these cartridges when the only difference is the chamber and cartridge dimensions, they'll see the average muzzle velocity difference is about 100 fps. Check the pages listing each cartridges' muzzle velocity and pressures for different bullet weights for their standard specifications in:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/206.pdf

Of course, if you supercharge either cartridge, it'll shoot a given bullet out faster. But that makes the playing field no longer level. Doesn't matter that it's less accurate winning the race to the target.

It boils down to free choice; that's what people did watching the .308 Win. shoot better scores when several cartridges were allowed. Same reason the .308 Win. started disappearing in the late 1990's when 28, then 26 and finally 24 caliber bullets became as accurate as the 30 caliber ones. People shifted to those ligher recoiling ones shooting bullets that bucked the wind good enough. Folks are free today to shoot .30-06 cartridges in virtually all high power rifle matches. Nothing prohibits that.
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Old January 28, 2014, 05:15 PM   #43
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So much of the debate centers around what you really really intend to do with the rifle in its end configuration.

Currently, the US military has been rebarreling its .308 Remington 700 precision/sniper rifles to 300 Win Mag. The rifles were built on the long action, originally intended for chambering in 30-06. However, politics, logistics and other worthwhile considerations caused the rifles to end up being chambered in .308.

For the military's uses, read that shooting people at long ranges, the .308 simply runs out of gas. From what I have read, it is sputtering at 800 yards. Does that mean that military precision shooters haven't used the .308 for spectacular results, no it doesn't. There have been numerous shows on the Military Channel detailing incidences in Iraq and Afghanistan and military personnel wringing incredible results from their equipment.

However, the extra powder capacity of the .300 Win mag extends the useful range, and with the extra capacity of the 30-06, it would also, especially if approached in a scientific, detailed fashion.

The downside of course, is barrel life. The 30-06 offers better barrel life than the .300 Win Mag does, or other hot .30 caliber.

I have a casual acquaintance that has a 30-06 that will shoot 4" groups at a 1000 yards. However the man has been shooting long range for a long time small airplane company, he had the depth of pocket and height of heel to be able to pay for an accurate weapon.

Here is an interesting read on a 30-06 competition rifle. It discusses the build of the target rifle that was used and reloading the 06 for competitionand has the skill set to utilize the rifle's capability. Also as the owner of a

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek091.html
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Old January 28, 2014, 05:53 PM   #44
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Any 30 caliber rifle will shoot 4 inch groups at 1000 yards; once in a while with only a few shots. That's been happening for decades. I don't know of any that'll shoot no worse than 4 inches all the time.

The most accurate benchrest rifles these days keep all shots under 6 to 7 inches in good conditions; they too, shoot tiny groups once in a while. Some few-shot groups are down in the 2 inch range or better and aggreages (group averages) are in the 4 to 5 inch range. These are the record groups. All the others are larger; 2x to 4x larger. These rifles are fired in free recoil virtually untouched by humans except for a finger tip on a 2 ounce trigger.

Shoulder fired match rifles are no different; they're just as accurate properly tested but that's masked because they shoot bullseye targets slung up in prone and the best they do is typically 20 inches at 1000 yards. Records with shoulder fired rifles at 1000 yards are about 10 inches and there's only one of two of those.

Super accurate rifles do not need an owner with deep pockets. But most folks think that's the way to tiny groups.

In the above link on building a .30-06 match rifle, I noticed an interesting remark: " but if the shooter can manage the recoil well, it shouldn't prove to be too much of a disadvantage, and 4000- to 5000-round accurate barrel life is a definite plus." Considering the average barrel of .30-06 barrels back in its heyday for long range matches was only 1500 to 2000 rounds as judged by the match winners and record setters back then, that article's author has limited credibilty in my opinion. Even the .308 Win. has only 2000 to 2500 rounds of long range accuracy to be competitive in the hands of top ranked competitors.
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Old January 28, 2014, 09:12 PM   #45
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Bart B, As to the classification please show rules "Once you’re assigned an NRA classification, you have to shoot at least the scores that got your that classification else you dropped to a lower one" .

This is what I read.

A competitor will be reclassified downward only upon request in writing by him to the NRA, and only on the basis of at least 320 shots (180 shots for Prone Classification) recorded as prescribed,fired subsequent to the effective date of his current classification. If his average on this basis so justifies he will be reclassified downward accordingly.

http://competitions.nra.org/document...R/hpr-book.pdf
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Old January 28, 2014, 09:17 PM   #46
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Quote:
I am not seeing a 200fps different with Hornady Superformance 165 SST.
30-06 is 1997fps and the 308 is 1902fps at 500 yards.

And sometimes the difference is even less but compare the heavier bullets and the 30-06 difference becomes clear.
Add to that the fact that you can easily get bullets from about 100-200 grain.

Also download that Federal Permium ballistics calculator and tou will see that starting at about 150 grain the difference is indeed is about 200 fps at 400 yards.

Don't know about Hornady. I never use them.
Only because my rifles seem to shoot Federal more accurately.
Their Vital-Shock is very good for my 308 and 30-06's.
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Old January 28, 2014, 10:18 PM   #47
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Old roper, you're right on getting a lower classification. I was thinking about the rule that says your classification is dropped if you don't shoot for a period of time. Rule 19.9 specifically.

It used to be ruled that shooting low scores got you reclassified lower. That changed a few years ago as you saw then reminded me. If reclassified back up to what he was, he will not be reclassified back down; that stuck in my mind and probably mixed me up.
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Old January 29, 2014, 06:49 AM   #48
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Bart B, The course of fire for high powder rifle long range classification is shot at 800,900 and 1000yds per NRA rules and you get classification based on one yardage not all three.

Mid range classification is 300,500 and 600yds

I'd have to see some rules books on how they drop classification since each yardage isn't requirement for classification.

I should mention I'm not trying to get into a contest with you just asking civil question and expect you'll answer that way.
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Old January 29, 2014, 08:25 AM   #49
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Roper, I know you're asking civil questions.

If one shoots "any rifle" in 20-shot matches only at one of the three long ranges, that's fine to get classified. Should they shoot a Palma rifle across the 45-shot Palma course, all three ranges' 15-shot scores are totaled and used to establish a long range classification.

In rule 19.5.1 Courses of Fire Used for High Power Rifle Long Range Classification, it mentions two courses of fire for long range classification; any rifle with 20 shots at either 800, 900 or 1000 yards, or the Palma course which is 45 shots with 15 shots fired at each range at 800, 900 and 1000 yards. The 20-shot any rifle matches can all be shot at one range but the Palma course uses three different ranges. Either course of fire can be used to establish a long range classification.

Rule 19.5.2 Courses of Fire used for Mid-Range Prone Classification states ranges of 300, 500 and 600 yards can be used when not part of an NRA High Power Rifle tournament or is part of a Mid-Range Tournament that can be fired at all three ranges. If all three ranges are used in a mid range match aggregate, then the scores for all ranges would be used to establish a classification.

This sometimes gets complicated; I sure was when these new rules were put in effect. But it does give clubs with shorter ranges shooting prone slow fire matches an opportunity to get folks classified for such shooting. Especially if 800 yards is the longest range a club has, they can still shoot matches with any rifle, a service rifle or a Palma rifle and get a long range classification. I think this it's a good idea to get more folks in different areas into the prone competition and ends up putting more people in the pool of shooters to work their way onto the USA Palma Team.

Regarding classifications being dropped (obsoleted). . . .

Rule 19.9 Obsolete Classifications and Scores—All classifications and scores (including temporary, Rule 19.14) except Master, shall become obsolete if the competitor does not fire in NRA competition at least once during 3 successive calendar years. Master classifications and scores shall become obsolete if the competitor does not fire in NRA competition at least once during 5 successive calendar years. Lifetime Master classifications will not become obsolete.

Once obsolete, you have to start over again to get reclassified. Lifetime Master classifications have not been issued for several years, but those who got it long ago still get to keep it.

Hope all this helps you understand. It used to be a lot simpler.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 153
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master

Last edited by Bart B.; January 29, 2014 at 10:08 AM.
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Old January 29, 2014, 02:47 PM   #50
DAVID NANCARROW
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Join Date: November 5, 2000
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 1,485
Picking between the 308 and the 06 used to be pretty simple. The traditional 06 twist was 1:10, necessary to stabilize the old 220 grain bullet from the parent 30-03 cartridge.

The 308 was supposed to be sort of a "product improved" 30-06 in that with the newer powders of the 1950s, you could get about the same velocity with the same 150 grain bullet, albeit with slightly higher pressure. A 1:12 twist is all that was needed to stabilize the 150 grain bullet, and works okay up to 180 grain-some to 190 grain bullets. For most factory produced rifles, the 06 continued with the 1:10 twist while the 308 used 1:12.

I see now that some makers are going to the 1:10 twist on the 308 but I don't know for sure why. The 190 grain and heavier bullets are going to crowd the powder space quite a bit, and with modern expanding bullets, I really don't see a performance advantage in going above 180 grains in my 308.

The other advantage to a short action rifle concerning accuracy is that the action is a bit stiffer, but I think that unless you are building a custom rifle, that advantage is probably more theoretical than actual.

I don't notice standard actions to be any smoother than my short action, but I have to admit that I have shot short action rifles for so long that when I do operate a standard length, it feels like I have to pull the bolt back a longgg way to cycle it, even though the actual difference is not really that much.
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