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Old January 23, 2014, 12:45 PM   #26
Gunplummer
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BartB, Good point about the face of the bolt being out of square with the chamber. Forgot that one. If you add up enough little things.......
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Old January 23, 2014, 02:28 PM   #27
F. Guffey
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Quote:
We in the business used to call stuff like that 3/4 $%%ed.
and 'we in the business' know an 03 Springfield has an extractor cut in the face of the cone faced barrel.

The same salesman selling the auto with the manual choke tried to sell another auto to someone that was 14 with no license and or money. The 14 year old asked "How much for this one? He responded with a price and the 14 year old responded with "WHAT!" " What do you take me for, a mutton head?" Then the salesman responded with "I didn't want to miss you".

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Old January 23, 2014, 03:21 PM   #28
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Loud purchases a gage, the bolt closes on the gage, the gage is a no go-gage, Bart B. sizes cases by the thousandths, as in moving the shoulder back .001”, and still I ask, How does he do that?” He does ‘it’ on cases that have been fire 5 times, and 10 times all the way up to 47 times fired. If I want to shorten a case from the shoulder to the head of the case, I shorten the case between the shoulder of the case and head of the case .010” and I know the shoulder did not bump, I have shortened the length of of a 280 Remington case .037” without moving/bumping?? the shoulder because I make part of the shoulder into part of the case body and part of the shoulder into part of the neck, I know using bump in a sentence sounds like someone knows what they are talking about, I can not bump the shoulder without bumping the case body, when I do something with the shoulder I must support the case body. At one time they, the manufacturers named a die a ‘bump die’ and reloaders bought the die and the concept. Then suddenly and without fan fair the manufacturer added ‘with case body support’.

If they were bumping the shoulder without case body support the case would squat/bulge at or below the case body/shoulder juncture, we all know that? Correct?

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Old January 24, 2014, 03:03 AM   #29
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What nonsense. Why have any standards at all? You are sooo full of it. You make gauges but have no use for numerical dimensions? Why don't you just push clay into the chamber and set your die sets to that. Why don't you tell us if that "Special" rifle that the alleged gunsmith could not check passed your gauges. If it was sooo "Special", where did the brass come from? How do you make a reamer, just keep grinding until it drops in one of your dies? Yeah, who needs SAAMI anyway? I'm done here.
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Old January 24, 2014, 10:06 AM   #30
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Gunplummer. When the bolt closes the chamber gets dark, that is no reason for the light in the mind to go out. I can check the length of a chamber 3 different ways, two of those 'ways' does not involve a gage.

SAAMI is nice, not a problem for me put the part that locks everyone up is the +/- or/maximum and minimum. Head space gages are fixed gage, I turn fixed gages in to variable gages.

One more time, I have a grinder, the grinder is designed to make pilots,
bevel pins and tapered gages, it cuts angles and it is a butt grinder. It can be used to make head space gages, problem, I do not want to know if the bolt will close on a fixed gage I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths from the shoulder to the bolt face. I do not covet head space gages, I treat head space gage like transfers and standards. If I want to know the distance from the deck of a shell holder to the shoulder in the die I measure the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die. It is not my job to convince the choir 'it can be done'.

And, I am not much on siding.

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Old January 24, 2014, 06:08 PM   #31
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Ok this is what I know , 1. the barrel is tight against the torque shoulder
2. the distance from the bolt face is greater than the length of the gauge that I used.
3.this is not due to wear , it was finish reamed too much.IMO
4.I at present do not know what the shoulder to bolt face length is.
5. this rifle in its present configuration has never been fired
6. when a fresh new brass rifle case is pushed with my thumb into the chamber .090 is sticking out.
7. I am not a gunsmith , just a guy with a little understanding and a problem lol.

Thanks ............LOUD
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Old January 24, 2014, 06:49 PM   #32
F. Guffey
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Loud, very good, case head protrusion for the Mauser 98 type is .110" +/- in the normal world. You have .090, +/- a little.

The .090" case head protrusion would give you .020" head space, the normal .110" case head protrusion would give you .005" If we are talking about the difference in the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the difference in length between the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.

I understand you did not do the work, I would have checked the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face before removing the barrel, I would then have measure case head protrusion from the barrel to the case head, then I would have measured from the C/torque ring to the bolt face.

From the three measurements I would have enough information to ream the chamber first and have a chamber that would be very close to being ..001" shorter than a go gage.

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Last edited by F. Guffey; January 24, 2014 at 11:47 PM. Reason: remove e
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Old January 25, 2014, 06:05 PM   #33
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Jim listed what Forester had to say on their gauges, and here is on Clymer, which I use.

From the Clymer catalog on Rimless gauges:

"This style of gauge measures headspace from the breech face to some established point on the shoulder of the chamber. This point is referred to as the “Datum Diameter” and ultra-precise ring gauges are used to measure this dimension during manufacture. SAAMI generally allows .010” between the minimum and maximum values for rimless calibers. Clymer “GO” and “FIELD” gauges correspond to the SAAMI minimum and maximum respectively. Because many feel that .010” is too much variation between a minimum and maximum chamber, we also offer as standard a “NO-GO” gauge, which is .006” longer than our “GO”.

"Rimless headspace gauges for Ackley Improved chambers are made in the same precise way as our other rimless gauges. An explanation of the principle used in headspacing Ackley Improved chambers is given below.

"In the few instances where our gauge dimensions differ from SAAMI values, our gauges will always be within the SAAMI minimum and maximum and will thus provide you, the shooter, with a more precise chamber."

----

In other words, if the bolt will close on a field gauge, have it looked at. No-Go is generally used to show a worn bolt or chamber from go-gauge dimensions, however someone could have reamed it to here.
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Old January 26, 2014, 09:06 AM   #34
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OP,initially I was giving consideration to your situation,which seems to be the "no lathe barrel installation" gone wrong.

There is more than one way to look at just about anything.

If you are going to work on rifles,particularly chambering and headspace,the workmanship standard has to be "It gets done right or it gets done over"

Odds are good you will not be the last owner of that rifle.Having to custom load is a pain.

The thing to do is make it right,and be proud of doing it.

If you do not have a lathe,you need a gunsmith.

I suggest you ask him to true the face of the receiver ring.

If it is a Mauser,and if it has no sights,etc on it yet,the fix is simply facing a little steel off the barrel shoulder and breech face.

There has been a lot of "workaround" discussion,and I was part of it.

Workarounds have their place,and most everything discussed will work,to one degree or another.

But those are just not the approach to take building rifles.

Get some experienced help.
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Old January 26, 2014, 08:06 PM   #35
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HiBC, On the surface I agree with everything you have said, And this being a no lathe barrel job gone wrong , it is exactly what it is. However( " this is the part where I start to drift away") think of what I can learn about loading for this specific rifle .I have been hand loading for about 10 years now and own maybe 60 or so mauser rifles. I have never fire formed a case, I have never really had to sharpen my skills to come out with what I needed . I equate this endeavor with this rifle somewhat akin to the moon missions of the 1970's not much practical use for the endeavor but look what we learned in doing so. I own a separate set of dies that I am hoping to set up for this specific rifle .I really appreciate all input and the advice. I will use this as an opportunity to learn more. I have always accepted challenges above and beyond my skill level so I could better myself with the knowledge attained .Thanks again......................LOUD
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Old January 27, 2014, 02:50 PM   #36
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While I still think its a bad idea,I won't argue with you.
What you will need to do is make sure the case head is against the bolt face,one way or another,when you fire.

You do not want the firing pin to drive the case forward to the chamber shoulder.If that occurs,the case head will blowback to the bolt,stretching and thinning the brass.You will get stretch rings/case head separations.

If it is a controlled round feed,you must feed from the magazine.

If you can find some 175 gr round nose bullets,good.Seat them long so they jam into the rifling.Make the bolt a little hard to close.You might use a starting load of very modest pressure.

Then do the paper clip trick to check for stretch ring.

Then you need a device such as an RCBS Precision mic to sneak up on your shoulder set back.Shoot for .002.

Once you know where that is,find a feeler gage to put between the die and shellholder when you set up.

Don't sell the rifle without disclosure.

Mr G will likely tell you to neck up then back down again to create a secondary shoulder.You can do that if you want.

When ot stops being fun,have the barrel set back,if you want.
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Old January 29, 2014, 10:44 AM   #37
F. Guffey
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Head space gages ande the unknown length of the chamber. from the shoulder to the bol

Quote:
Mr. G will likely tell you to neck up then back down again to create a secondary shoulder. You can do that if you want.
Then the question would be, after the secondary shoulder is created/established, then what? I am surrounded by bumpers, they can bump the shoulder .001", or .002" and that is it.

I can size a case to go-gage length, I can size a case to no go-gage length, and I can size a case to field reject length, then there is the gage that goes to infinity, that would be one gage that measures all the length.

Going from bumping .001" to measuring the length of a chamber with one gage from .000. above or below .000" is quite a leap. But, this stuff does not lock me up.

Quote:
HiBC, On the surface I agree with everything you have said, And this being a no lathe barrel job gone wrong , it is exactly what it is. However( " this is the part where I start to drift away") think of what I can learn about loading for this specific rifle .I have been hand loading for about 10 years now and own maybe 60 or so mauser rifles. I have never fire formed a case, I have never really had to sharpen my skills to come out with what I needed . I equate this endeavor with this rifle somewhat akin to the moon missions of the 1970's not much practical use for the endeavor but look what we learned in doing so. I own a separate set of dies that I am hoping to set up for this specific rifle .I really appreciate all input and the advice. I will use this as an opportunity to learn more. I have always accepted challenges above and beyond my skill level so I could better myself with the knowledge attained .Thanks again......................LOUD
Again! I have an M1917 EDDYSTONE, The rifle is stamped EK, the chamber is .002" longer than a field reject gage. For those that measure that is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case from the shoulder to the head of the case. CHOICES? 308 NORMA MAG. I have two, then there is that 03A4 Barrel someone bubbed?, magnificent barrel complete with air brakes. The reamer cleaned up the chamber. Now the receiver is back to being an 03A4 and period correct. I could have used a 30 Gibbs reamer, the 30 Gibbs reamer would clean up the chamber, EXCEPT the neck, it is possible the neck diameter in the Eddystone would be larger in diameter than the neck cutting part of the reamer, in that situation the neck diameter would not change.

Back to my Eddystone, instead of necking up I use 280 Remington cases, because I never got the hang of 'bumping' I started forming, with out a chamber gage like go, no and beyond, I formed the 280 Remington case by adjusting the die off the shell holder .014", then I chambered the formed case, it chambered, then I increased the gap to .016", after forming, the bolt closed with slight resistance. And then? I verified the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case. The case was .016" longer than a minimum length case from the shoulder to the head of the case.

I know, there is the dreaded firing pin strike, so powerful it drives the case, bullet and powder to the front of the chamber, I should feel important typing that, but, my Eddystone has an exemption, there is nothing bashful about the firing pin strike of my M1917s. the sound is not a little bitty timid click, the sound they make is CLICK!!!!!. There is a technique that could prove if the case runs to the front of the chamber before firing, or if it fires after hitting the shoulder. I am a case former, not a bumper, meaning to me it matters not, my cases have all that travel eliminated.

The OP has a press, dies and a no go-gage, no where is it written he is not allowed to form cases that are longer from the shoulder to the head of the case than minimum length, go gage length , field reject length and gages that go to infinity. The no go-gage is a transfer, it is a standard, If he choose to neck up his 280 Remington cases he could remove the primer punch/neck sizer ball assemble and then install a 308 diameter sizer ball, to neck the case up then with the punch/sizser assemble removed from the die he could place the 280 Remington no go-gage4 in the shell holder and raise the ram, After raising the ram he could adjust the die down to the no go-gage until it contacts the shoulder of the gage, then? He could raise the die .005" with feeler gages and or a height gage and th3en secure the die to the press with the lock ring making sure the die does not rotate.

He could then install a necked up case in the shell holder and raise the ram. When the cases are removed he could attempt chambering or he could verify the location of the shoulder in relation with the case head. If the formed case will not chamber the OP will know the length of the chamber is shorter than a field reject gage.

What to do with the information? My Eddystone should have .090" case head protrusion from the bottom of the extractor cut. I have to add the .016" to the .090", that is .106" Problem? With military cases with .200" case head thickness there is .094" of the case head being supported less the radius. If I choose to improve unsupported case head I can use R-P cases, the R-P case head has a case head thickness of .260".

When using a go, no or beyond gage as a standard/transfer there is a chance the gage will not fit the shell holder, not a problem, the deck height of the shell holder should be .125", if the #3 shell holder is to small for the no go-gage use a #4, remember, the deck height is .125" for both shell holders.

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Last edited by F. Guffey; January 29, 2014 at 10:48 AM. Reason: remove 3 from th3e
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Old January 31, 2014, 09:14 PM   #38
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Man...
I've never seen such a set of convoluted, overly complicated answers to a VERY simple question from a regular "guy"- not a gunsmith, not a wildcatter.

It was a simple question about headspace, for cripes sake.

If it fails the No-Go gauge, it's worn, and on the way out- unless it was rebarreled incorrectly.

Just posted this from CMP on another thread, here it is again:

Quote:
The “NO GO” gauge - is used to make sure a firearm does not have excessive headspace. The bolt should NOT fully close on the “NO GO” gauge, if the bolt cannot be closed on the “NO GO” gauge then you know your rifle does not have headspace that is excessive. The “NO GO” gauge can be thought of as a maximum headspace gauge and should not be able to fit in the rifle's chamber with the bolt fully closed. If the bolt DOES close on the “NO GO” gauge, it does not necessarily mean that the rifle is unsafe; it does however show that a further check with the “FIELD” gauge would be necessary to determine if it is safe to shoot.

The “FIELD” gauge - is used to check absolute maximum headspace. If the bolt closes fully on the “FIELD” gauge the rifle IS NOT to be fired and should be considered unsafe to shoot. CMP does not use this gauge because rifles that pass the “FIELD” check but fail the “NO GO” are approaching the point where they will be unsafe to shoot. Our standard for maximum headspace is the “NO GO” gauge to ensure our customers will be able to shoot safely for many years.
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Old January 31, 2014, 10:02 PM   #39
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LOUD- get you rifle fixed.
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Old February 1, 2014, 09:08 AM   #40
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Ditto.
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Old February 1, 2014, 09:48 AM   #41
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Mr Guffey is actually starting to make sense to me. He's just more detail oriented and meticulous than most of us, and his depth of knowledge is quite amazing. His info reminds me of a time in the USMC that I was asked to give a talk on explosives. Well, being an engineer, I gave a deep talk on explosives, with detonation velocity and solid/gas interface info. Later, the Major said that not a soul had a clue as to what I said, and all he wanted from me what how a grenade worked. Oh....
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Old February 1, 2014, 10:18 AM   #42
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All this is true as to what you can do. Such as

Flat tire- put the green stuff in it
Broken anntena- wrap tin foil around it
oil leak- add sealent
broken glasses- Tape them
ect,ect
Or you could just get it fixed right.
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Old February 2, 2014, 12:35 AM   #43
F. Guffey
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After you guys get through scaring each other we can go to the next page. The original poster ask a question, he wanted to know what was beyond the no go-gage, the answer should be a field reject gage.

Reloaders that are consumer oriented recommended buy, buy, buy.

One suggested if it is possible to form case providing they have a press and dies with threads and have a a basic understanding of the relation between the length of the chamber and the distance from the deck of the shell holder and shoulder of the die. If adjusting the die drives a reloader to the curb they still have the option of buy, buy, buy.

Moving beyond scaring people. It is possible to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face without a go, no or beyond gage. I know, most are already scared, then there is the possibility the person asking the question has a go-gage, it is possible to modify a go-gage to a go to infinity gage, or in like the OP, he has a no go-gage, again, it is possible to modify a no go-gage to a no go-gage to infinity gage. I know, most of your are getting dizzy and at risk of passing out, but it is possible to use a no go-gage as a go-gage. And my favorite, using the go-gage as a short chamber gage.

Then the other part of his question: What is the risk of chambering a round and firing it, as in what is expected to happen. If there is any chance the firing pin strikes the primer and the case grows feet, then runs to the front of the chamber the case will stretch between the case head and case body. Problem, he has a Mauser, 'THE CLAW' Mauser. I have suggested the choir scribe a case at the case body/shoulder juncture, I have said I have never found skid marks on a case. I find the case body/juncture does not move meaning when I pull the trigger and the scribe mark does not move the cases I use do not have feet making it impossible for the case to run to the front of the chamber.

It is possible to determine if the case has the ability to run to the front of the chamber before leaving the shop, it is possible to correct the problem at the range long enough to fire form the cases. He was using 03A3 and 03 receivers, he was not using 'THE CLAW' I know, in all appearances the 03 type receiver has 'THE CLAW', not true, the springfield as a claw.

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Old February 2, 2014, 12:54 AM   #44
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604 County, thank you.

It was not hand grenades, it was land mines. the captain was with Darby during the war, what could go wrong?

He started with Personal Mines. he removed the canister charge, stood the mine up on the ground then laid down with a 2x4 and hit the 3 fingers thinking the canister would go straight up, instead, he knocked it over, instead of 'bouncing up' it took off level with the ground.

Methods and techniques: It is possible to put them to sleep and it is possible to wake them up.

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Old February 2, 2014, 08:32 AM   #45
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After you guys get through scaring each other we can go to the next page. The original poster ask a question, he wanted to know what was beyond the no go-gage, the answer should be a field reject gage.

No Guffy-That was not his question as I see it. His question was - Is it ok. While I agree with your field gauge and all. The answer we should be giving a person In here is the safe and right one- Get it fixed. Now bring your field gauge with you every time you shoot and keep checking every 20 rounds or so?. Or forget it a home and find out the hard way that the field gauge fit's now. Ya you can drive on a flat tire,but is it safe. For pete's sake- Fix the darn thing the way it is supposed to be.

I guess I just like to play it safe.
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Old February 2, 2014, 12:35 PM   #46
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your input would be appreciated ........................LOUD
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