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Old January 19, 2014, 12:15 AM   #1
Stillhunter
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Ruger American, TC Arms Venture,Scary

A good friend of mine just bought a Ruger American in 270 win.He,s kinda excited about it,being his first high power rifle and all.
So he,s showing me this and that about it,when he pulls the bolt out and shows it to me,I said wait a minute,I,ll be right back. I go to vault and get my TC Venture,also in 270 win,pull the bolt out,compared them side by side and he says, WOW, their basically the same. We get to comparing them side by side and cosmetically from a distance it,s hard to tell them apart.The stocks even look similar.The Ruger,s trigger also looks very similar to the Mossberg,s LBA.
This is all just cosmetically,we didn,t actually strip em down.
But it just looks to me like most of the parts and pieces of these so called disposable rifles are coming from the same place,just tweaked a little differently,then shipped to the arms company,where their assembled and stamped made in USA. What do you think? Set me straight if I,m way off base here.
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Old January 19, 2014, 02:16 AM   #2
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Ruger manufactures the American in-house (even the barrels), as does TC for the Venture.

There's only so much you can do to a bolt-action rifle, to simplify and lower the cost, before everyone ends up building almost the same thing.

That aside... I don't think the rifles look like clones, at all. Very similar? Yes. Identical? Nope.
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Old January 19, 2014, 10:32 PM   #3
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They both have three lug bolts. They are both tube stock actions. They both have crappy looking finishes on the metal. Similar, but not identical by any means.
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Old January 21, 2014, 07:10 PM   #4
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T/C and Ruger both make their rifles in-house.

They are very similar as the American borrows from the "best" features of the existing value rifles.

My Venture is a fine, well-made gun.
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Old January 21, 2014, 08:38 PM   #5
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Not to stir the pot too crazy, but I had heard people saying that ruger has kind of been "ripping off" designs from other manufacturers the last few years. That's just somebody's opinion though, not really my opinion. I have never even handled a ruger, so I can't say.
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Old January 21, 2014, 11:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Not to stir the pot too crazy, but I had heard people saying that ruger has kind of been "ripping off" designs from other manufacturers the last few years. That's just somebody's opinion though, not really my opinion. I have never even handled a ruger, so I can't say.
...no more than every other rifle builder in the world "ripping off" Mauser designs, or Savage "ripping off" Marlin's trigger designs, or Mossberg "ripping off" Weatherby designs.
They're firearms. They operate in the same basic fashion, and we've explored a great deal of variations over the last 170 years. No matter what you do, it's going to be very similar to something else.
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Old January 22, 2014, 01:27 AM   #7
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You copy what works. Notice, no one has tried to copy the S&W I-Bolt. But just about everyone makes a 1911.

And not as an attack on you, but if you are just repeating what other people say and have never handled one yourself, don't comment on it.
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Old January 22, 2014, 01:39 PM   #8
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I guess it would be fair to say that both TC and Ruger are "ripping" off Beretta.
There are not but so many ways you can build a bolt action. The Mark V action is a unique action. With the exception of it all the others pretty much are a variant of 3 actions. Two of those are are so similar that they might as well be in one class.
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Old January 22, 2014, 06:05 PM   #9
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Maybe dude was just a ruger hater
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Old January 22, 2014, 09:46 PM   #10
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Most bolt action rifles are a rip-off (to a certain degree) of either a Remington 700, or a Mauser, or both.

The Ruger American, Remington 783, Marlin X7, and Mossberg ATR are all ripping off Savage by using the same or similar barrel nut, recoil lug (except for the RAR), and trigger design.

I really could care less who's idea it all was originally, what matters for these rifles is using the best combination of ideas/designs to produce the best possible rifle while still meeting the target price point.
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Old January 23, 2014, 09:45 AM   #11
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Very much agree with stevenchunter!
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Old January 23, 2014, 10:19 PM   #12
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I read a book on all the action types that were tried, there are a lot.

So if you go to make a low cost gun you are going to check that out and you will find people come up with the same low cost solutions .

If its a good low cost it will go in a high cost rifle or a low one.

Nothing new under the sun in guns, its all been done one time or another.

No reason not to copy all the best ideas be it a low cost or a high cost.
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Old January 24, 2014, 11:18 PM   #13
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I actually think the best design (and the popular design of the future) will be the locking lugs locking in the barrel and not the action itsself.
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Old January 25, 2014, 10:11 AM   #14
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If you could look at disassembled engine parts from all the major auto manufacturers, would you expect to see more similarities or more differences?

Regarding the gun makers, if you expand your investigations to other types of guns, revolvers for instance, there would be far more differences in design between them.
You just happened to pick the bolt actions, with the least variables in design.
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Old January 25, 2014, 10:49 AM   #15
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Reynolds357, I agree. I just hope they don't use the Remington 710/770 as a design platform. The Sauer 101 http://www.sauer-101.com is a better specimen of the "lugs locking in the barrel" design. The only thing I don't like about it is that the barrel, just like the 710/770, is pressed on. I understand that makes it easier to line up the slots for the locking lugs and get proper headspacing at the same time. But if they could somehow incorporate the Savage barrel but system into that design I'd be a bigger fan of it. If you want to change a barrel that's pressed in, you're going to have to heat the reciever, pull the barrel out, heat the receiver again, get the barrel pressed in and lined up, then heat and re-harden the receiver. I'd much rather have a rifle that I could do an easy at-home barrel swap with than a rifle that most gunsmiths don't even want to mess with.
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Old January 25, 2014, 11:00 AM   #16
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I agree Steve, the barrel needs to be threaded if it is going to be easily re-barrelable. The design has the possibility to extremely strong and accurate. Howa is reportedly experimenting this design.
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Old January 25, 2014, 05:58 PM   #17
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And speaking of ripping off Mauser, just how many cartridges are based on the 8mm x 57? Grab any half-decent reloading manual that has good dimensional diagrams and check out the dimensions around the head, web etc.
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Old January 25, 2014, 06:41 PM   #18
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.308 Win, .30-06, .375 h&H mag rip offs probably account for half the popular rifles of the mid to late 20th Century.
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Old January 25, 2014, 11:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
8x57
The only cartridges I know of that are in the 8x57 family are the 7x57, .257 Roberts, 6mm remington, and .224 TTH/.22-6mm. There's a 6.5x57 wildcat I believe but it's not very popular IIRC.
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Old January 26, 2014, 04:55 AM   #20
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Couldn't agree with steveNChunter more. Didn't winchester initially lose a lawsuit to Mauser over the model 70? And had to pay Mauser rights for the design. Different manufacturers all trying to make a product for the same intended purpose, they tend to look alike.

That being said, I'm an auto mechanic and unless it's an engine I personally really like and am into, I couldn't tell the difference in manufacturer of today's engine internals.
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Old January 26, 2014, 09:27 AM   #21
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The 7X57 was the first rimless cartridge with the . 473 rim diameter , Which is common to way more cartridges than steveNChunter listed . The 30-06 was probably the first one , so all it's offspring should be on that list too . Which should also list the .308 and all it's offspring .
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Old January 26, 2014, 02:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Couldn't agree with steveNChunter more. Didn't winchester initially lose a lawsuit to Mauser over the model 70? And had to pay Mauser rights for the design.
During WWI, the United States actually had to pay royalties to Mauser, for every Springfield we produced. The funds, however, were held in trust until after the war.


Quote:
The 7X57 was the first rimless cartridge with the . 473 rim diameter , Which is common to way more cartridges than steveNChunter listed . The 30-06 was probably the first one , so all it's offspring should be on that list too . Which should also list the .308 and all it's offspring .
When you get into cartridge lineage, things get really complicated, really quickly. And, most of the common knowledge "facts" are usually incorrect, or only partially correct.

For example, the United States' first official cartridge based on the Mauser dimensions was .30-03. The .30-06 came a few years later (shorter neck and case length, and intended to use a different spitzer bullet). And, contrary to popular belief, .270 Win, .280 Rem, and .35 Whelen are based on .30-03 - not .30-06.

The same goes for .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm. Although it's easy to say it's a shortened .30-06, it's actually a "stretched" .300 Savage. The .300 Savage, of course, was its own development, also based on the 7x57mm case (rather than .30-03 or .30-06).

No matter what you look at....
Most people, even P.P. Mauser, agree that modern bottleneck cartridge design all started with the French () and their 11mm Gras.
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Last edited by FrankenMauser; January 27, 2014 at 04:44 PM. Reason: Cartridge name typo...
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Old January 26, 2014, 08:48 PM   #23
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I bought into the TC craze a few years ago, buying a used Encore at a gun show. The gun will shoot, mind you, but take the barrel off and look at the inside of the receiver, and it looks like something out of a sweatshop. Terrible finish for a gun of its price. I wish I'd saved my money and bought something else.

As to Ruger...one thing I loved about Ruger for years, was that they didn't jump on the bargain wagon with Remington, Browning, Winchester and everyone else who started churning out matte guns that looked like they'd been spray painted black and stuck in plastic stocks. You either got a beautiful wood-stocked, blued rifle, or a stainless/synthetic rifle. Fast-forward to now...and they've started marketing cheap junk rifles like everyone else. Will they shoot? Of course. Are they the type of firearm of by-gone years that you buy in your 20s and leave to your grandchildren? No...they're plumb near disposable. Axis, American, 710....nearly every company has its cheap knockoff.

And I'm not interested in any of them.
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Old January 26, 2014, 11:02 PM   #24
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Thank you FrankenMauser, I couldn't recall which it was. Now, I remember reading that about the 03 Springfield in Chris Kyle's last book, American Gun. On a side note, I loved the great history in the book but didn't care for informal (to be generous ) writing style.
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Old January 27, 2014, 04:56 AM   #25
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Quote:
The 7X57 was the first rimless cartridge with the . 473 rim diameter , Which is common to way more cartridges than steveNChunter listed . The 30-06 was probably the first one , so all it's offspring should be on that list too . Which should also list the .308 and all it's offspring .
The cartridges I listed only differ by caliber size. There may be other cartridges that share certain aspects/dimensions with the Mauser case, but if you look at all the dimensions of the case, you will find more differences than similarites. Compare the 6mm rem and .243 win, the .257 roberts and .25-06, the 7x57 and 7mm-08. Now try to form the brass from one to fit the other. The .308 and 06' families are very much different than the Mauser case.
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